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[求情時間] 52歲教師(乙水)11歲女生開房

The question is silimiar to the relationship between the doctor and the patient.  (Or priest and altar boy )  The relationship is one of trust.

The girl is NOT old enough to make a rational choice!  By placing one girl underage to make the choice, we will have to place all the girl of the same age and older to make the same choice because we have no mind reader to check for maturity.  If the age is in disputed, people can always appeal to the representative in the government for a change of law.

When her guardian places her under the trust of the teacher, They probably expect the teacher to behave professionally and do not take advantage with his position as a teacher.  

A similiar situation arise when a patient listens to a doctor.about his sickness.  The patient expects the doctor to behave professionally and not tell lies for whatever reason the doctor has.

The deeper impact behind all these is that if doctors tell lie, would anyone believe the doctors?
If the teachers are allow to "temper" with his/her student, who would leave their children to the teacher?  (Would you leave your childen beside a heavy machinery in the factory?)

Therer is indeed a practical reason behind the law.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-1-19 09:27 編輯 ]
If the majority agree that girl can make rational choice on sex, pregency, etc... , they can refect their opinion to their government representative and have the law changed.  The age of concent is different for different era and differemt places.  

When a woman has sex, there is a certain possibility that she will get pregnant (even with a condom, there is still a little chance due to misuse).  I doubt a grade 6-7 student has the experience nor physical ability to handle the situation properly. What does it mean to make a rational choice?  At least the 11-year old must have some idea of all the consequences of her action (STD, pregenancy, etc).  Is she prepared to rear a baby when she have sex?  Even if she is prepare for the child, will she has the financial means to raise the child? A law is made for a case in general , Is an average 11 years old prepare for all that?

However, while the law is in place, I think it must be kept.

For the money, I would rather not guess at the intention as we still have not have a mind detector yet.  Maybe it just happens to be after the act?  Coincidence.  Perhaps he also give her gift and money at other time, this is just one of those time?

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-1-19 15:42 編輯 ]
I generally agree with Uncle B on "呢單衰十一案,不是一些十七歲青年與十五歲女朋友,偷食禁果那麽單純。如果男教師最後被成功檢控,刑期會長很多的。"

The difference is 3 fold:
1) Whereas it may be 2 person under the age of consent, in this case, it is only one.  The older one should have know better.

2) The relation is one of trust.  The child is placed under the protection of the teacher and professional behaviour is expected.

3) The girl is way below the age of consent and is far from the grey area of age.

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If they are truely in love, they have the obvious option of waiting till the girl is 18 to do it.  It is only 7 years of wait.  NO ONE is charging them because of their age difference.  If the girl is 18, we do not have a case.  Quite a few famous men has a very young wife and the society is not one sided about it.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-1-19 15:57 編輯 ]

回復 18# 的帖子

I said, society do not punish him because of their age difference, but because the girl is young.  If the girl is 18, even if their age difference remain the same, there will be no charge laid,

The question is do they have the opportunity of getting th knowledge.  At the age of 18, everyone should have pass through the mandatory education, and should have the chance to know about most of the risk involved in the act.  At the age of 11, sex education has hardly started.

It is easy to teach a child to say "no".  Much more difficult is for them to understand the reasons behind it.  Being able to say no to a rapist is very far from having a rational view of sex.  Even baby would have cry when they are mistreated, are they rational about all the pain causing agents?  Do we leave baby besides pool because they will cry as they drown?  

On responsibility, if the girl do get pregnant, she cannot take the responsibility even if she wasnts to.  She is not in the legal age to even work!  If complication occur due to her young age, she is neither able to pay for the extra cost, nor can she take the responsibility of the medical situation she created.    It is simliar to having high blood pressure and getting pregnant.  At least the oldwe woman can claim she is prepare for death (both mother and baby), is the young girl prepare for it?  It is not illegal, but down right irresponsible (assuming she knows the consequences).

The question again, is of chance.  An undergraduate has the chance of raising a child even he do not have enough income for it at the moment.  If the couple has a proper job, they can at least provide food and shelter for the baby.  When worst come to worst, they can move to area with lower standard of living.  However, if the couple are both mentally disabled for example) who are incapable of even feeding themselves, how do they take the responsibility?  With no help, they can only starve the baby to death.  The society cannot just watch the baby dies.  The society is "forced" to pick up the bill (physically and emotionally).  Similiarly, the girl cannot even feed herself and will not be able to do so at least until she can work legally (in 7 years?).

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Two wrongs do not make a right.  Even if there are irresponsible people who are old, does not make irresponsible behaviour happening in the youth right.  

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If the law do not reflect the moral principle of the majority, it is time to get the opinion across to the government representative.  The law is made for the people and BY the people.

Hong Kong has a Legco, and the government is quite "free" on the discussion of the particular issue.
"兩情相悅:技術上應該要等待到女童的合法年齡才進一步,對事件發生表示同情和感到不幸"
The teacher has a wife and hild himself.  But since we have no mind reader, we will never know.
"男騙女:男教師利用自己受人信任的身分,和牧師神父搞細路無分別,都是十分無恥,我十分同情女童的遭遇"
It would look like so.  Do you give the same doubt when the priest molest the altar boy?
"女主動:在感情上我同情男教師,但亦要為他的自主性失控負責"
Sure, if you can also sympathize manslaughter who murder because they lost control of their emotion.  (Do you sympathize with the VICTIM?)
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Note the the 3 are not mutually exclusive.
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According to Dakins interview with victim, having church life as a children is actually worst then being molest... (Hence Dawkins argue that child indocrination is child abuse.)
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回復 22# 的帖子

"Well, although the court should punish people by judging as if a fair judge would do, practically speaking, the judges are simply human beings, and they may have bad impression on the teacher because of the difference in age, ......the reasons)"

For such a serious criminal case, we may have jury (the public).  Law is design BY the people for the people, ofcourse they know about this.

"When compared to older students, those aged 11 would have less chance to know about sex. That's why I believe that schools should  ... ...If so, it seems to me that it is also well possible for the girl to get her information about sex by her own means also."

It does not matter whether the older ones gets the informaion or not, once they are given the chance, it is THEIR responsibility to grasp the information.   For the 11 years old, she is not even given the chance.

It is like predestian who insist on crossing the road on a red light.  They will deserve all the consequences.  Whereas if it is only a little children below 9 year old crossing, their guardian will e responsible (negligence).

"Of course, it is a case very different from rape. But it maybe arguable ...... are likely to be based on some good relationship before one party "乙水" another."

If a social worker lures a mentally disable woman into sex, is that not rape?  What about someone who drugged a woman into sex in her disoriented state?  The girl is only 11, the parent can be charge for child negligence if she is left alone at home.

"Also, I think it would be unfair to compare those of 11 years old with those baby. In fact, we would usually judge people's rationality by their behaviours (after all, we can't just "view" their mental states). ... I think that she does have the ability to make rational choices."

Quite the reverse, without parents, she will be even more dependent as she will have no one to learn the life lesson from.  Who will be more mature?  A person who live in a loving family, or a person that live alone in the wild?  

Do we need scientific report to support the obvious? (I have read before about it)

If having sex with the teacher (who has a wife and child) is rational, what is not?  I see 11 year old doing silly things all the time.  Yes, they no longer do many things that causes immediate danger, but their foresight is still very short.  I suppose you note that we ALREADY places many place off limit for 11 year old to make it impossible for them to be silly.  Currently (in Canada at least), it is a crime to leave an 11 year old at home alone.

" The girls may have not sufficient income to raise the child, but the teacher should have (it doesn't necessary for both parents to have job to raise a children). In addition, there should be some social subsidy if she accidentially gets a baby. Otherwise, should those low income people's right to have baby be deprived?"

Sorry, if a person income cannot support a baby, they should not have a baby.  Planning to get welfare for your baby is just irresponsible.  It is irresponsible to force the society to pick up the tab for irresponsible  individual behaviour.  

Will the teacher pay for it?  the teacher has a wife and child.  It is what is so irrational about the girl.  Did she has the life experience to judge WHO can be trusted and who cannot?  The teacher is PLACED in a place of trust, not by his merit, but by the guardians.  Should he be any stranger on the street, the chance of the girl trusting the bull will probably drop.

"I agree with you that "Two wrongs do not make a right", but those irresponsible older ladies would mean that ages should not be the underlying difference for people to judge for the rightness in cases."

Not really.  We must understand the differemce in the underlying causes.  For the older ladies, it is because of their owned INFORMED choice.  For the 11 year old, she is not properly informed.

"The law (or at least, the judgement) would not be necessary reflect the social norms. Otherwise, how come so many people have dispute on legal judgements? For example, the cases of 中大學生報 and the bible leads to some dispute, right?"

The bible issue is not a legal fight.  The agency is a government agency backed by the law, but the ruling is not.  (You notice there is no judges in the case since the beginning)

The dispute is not whether we should have such an agency or not (which is law), but how the details on agency should operate (which is not exactly law, but government administration).

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-1-20 12:01 編輯 ]
The research I hear is from Open University on TVB Pearl

But anyway, here is a bit of information:
http://mentalhealth.samhsa.gov/p ... -0010/default.asp#4
"Who is at risk for conduct disorder?"
"Separation from parents, without an adequate alternative caregiver;"
"Family neglect;"
"Parental marital discord; "

"What are the signs of conduct disorder?"
"Precocious sexual activity. "

"Conduct disorder affects 1 to 4 percent of 9- to 17-year-olds, depending on exactly how the disorder is defined (U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 1999). The disorder appears to be more common in boys than in girls and more common in cities than in rural areas."

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I am an oversea student myself.  I see xactly the opposite.  It is even reported repeatedly on school's newpaper on the kind of things that can happen to oversea student once they are seperated from their parental love.  (Gamble, speeding and drug.. my brother's school for example, is a school with a total population of such student.  Drug is as prevalent as coca cola in the school...)

Exchange student is valuable because they live in an area with different experience, not because they are seperated and un-cared for.  If they only need a state of living alone, they do not need to move to another country, all they need is sent the kids to a (poorly functioning) boarding school. (Well functioning boarding school take care of their student better than their mom, physically.)  Cheap and efficient?

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For more, we have study on psychopath...

http://crime.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=crime&cdn=newsissues&tm=49&gps=446_757_1020_568&f=00&tt=14&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/tick/victims_1.html%3Fsect%3D19

Poor parenting is certaining a key factor.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-1-21 13:43 編輯 ]
If the question is about whether or not we should have a 淫審處, I think the public will side with me and think it is neccessary.  It is a totally different question on how 淫審處 operate within (which is government adminstration).

To put it straight, the question is not whether or not we should seperate children from obscene material, but in HOW to determine if something is obscene.

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When a student attend a class on sex education, it is considered they are informed about it.  Whether they really listen in class or not, is not the question.  

When a police officer told the driver to stop the vehicle, he is considered informed about it.  (Assuming the driver is not disabled) Whether the driver listen or not is not the question.

The 11 year old is not informed.  And I wonder if she can be informed about complicated matter as such and truly grasp the gravity of it.

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Here is a bit of math:

Suppose there is 10% of having a baby.  The girl have sex 5 times.

10% for the first time
10% + 9% for the second time =19%
10% + 9% + 8.1% for the third time = 27.1%
10% + 9% + 8.1% + 7.39% for he fourth time = 34.49%
10% + 9% + 8.1% + 7.39% + 6.651% for the fifth time = 40+%
(As the number of times of sex increase, the chance of having a baby will become a certainty or 100%)

In any case, the chance of the girl having a baby is not so low after 5 times of sex.  Fortunately, if they use condom properly, the chance is below 0.1% each time.  But has the girl been taught about the use of contraception.  Both on the gravity of the situation, and the know-how?

Least we forget there is also STD standing on the door.
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For legal system, the jury is slected at random.  And lawyers on each side can reject a certain number of them.  The decision is not made by an INDIVIDUAL, but by a random sampling of the society at large (if everything is running smoothly).  That is, YOU too can be selected to become the jury and judge.

If the judge is not fair, he can repeal the ruling and try again.  New judge, new jury.

The law is made by the people for the people, they know about that too.  (Hey, it is a few thousands years of experience with many trial and errors.  It is quite refined system)

回復 34# 的帖子

4. 淫審處 is NOT selected at random.  The governement is not even saying that.  But the judicial court's jury IS selected at random (presumably by machine)  The task given to them is to GRADE, not to RULE or JUDGE.  The question has been ask in Legco before.

6.  That will be horrible decision making.  Exactly the irrational thinking the 11 year old may get into.  Exactly what the type of mistake sex education in school is trying to teach people NOT to make (Perhaps why AV is not a good replacement for sex education).

I understand what you mean by "sunk cost" in economic, but it is applying it incorrectly.  The correct model is to make your desision without cosidering the LOST of the past.  The 10% in the past is already LOST.  But what I calculating here is an ACCUMULATED lost of the whole plan and it is the accumulated lost that the girl will get at the end, NOT the lost of any particular decision.

You only need to have baby once to get into problem.  Once pragenent, you will have to register on a hospital.  They will send cops and social worker to "investigate".

There is also a very low risk for traffic accident each time you speed, or not wearing the seat belt, or getting healh problem when you smoke opium, or cigarette, or weed..etc  That is what I mean foresight of an adult.  While an adult may not have foresight, a children can easily be dis-oriented in the world of mathematics.

5.  There is sex education in Health class and Physical Eduation class at around grade 8-9 in Canada.  I have "seen" student beginning these classes at around form 1 in HK.  Again, most students I observe still do not have the maturity to understand the gravity of the issue and listen carefully.  The same leeson is taught (in Canada) again in first year university and last year of highschool where people are most likely to make a error in judgement.

Sadly, just like simple idea such as wearing your seat belt, some people just never manage to understand it.

1. and 2.  I have friends that is overprotected by their parents and is "released to the wild".  Unlike the popular impression, these fellows behave much better than the other group.  They have better emotion control, "superior" social skills, work habit, sleep habit, etc..  The difference is they lack the hard survival skills (such as the know how of how to wash their clothes.. I am amused when I first met my friend staling in front of the washing machine.  I am teaching a 20 years old how to use a washing machine!)  I suspect that is what give people the wrong impression.
2) the habbit of having sex is NOT an independent behaviour.  When a person have sex, endorphine will be release.  It is a highly addictive drug.  Besides, the brain will also release chemical emotionally bonding the person with the person who you have sex with.  Please consult Helen Fisher (leading scientist in the area) web page for scientific information on the issue.

a) For the same reason, the risk of killing yourself in an car accident without wearing the seat belt should be consider as past.  Since the chance of getting into a car accident and killing yourself because of not wearing a seat belt is extremely low, people should never wear seat belt.  OFCOURSE NOT.

3) I have attend those class.  So the education IS there.  The question is whether you have attend it or not.  

It is not foolish to not know something before it is taught.  It is precisely because the student do not know that you need to teac them.  The teacher who think the student is foolish is just silly.  It is just like math, the student must be smart enough to grasp the material, but noetheless they should be taught.

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1) Oh, those who pick up the hard skill alone?  They are WEAK emotionally.  And the skill is not optimal (I would self decribe myself into this category).  the one who do not know how to use a washing machine will and have try over and over again even under repeated failure, whereas the not protected simply give up and seek escape from failure (such as drug, video arcade.. etc).

Supply do not automatically arise from demand.  Just because a person deperately need something, does NOT mean he can learn it.  Throwing a baby into the water in order to learn how to swim is not a bright idea.  Something that survivor would figure out...

Besides, those that do come with me through stages are those that survive.  There are many that simply do not survive (literally dead , or in a ruinous state of crime or proverty.. My best friend in Canada is in such state of proverty and at the edge of crime.. drug trafficking.  I have lost contact with him now, I wish nothing happen to him).  I am comparing the BEST of the survivor with the WEAKEST of the protected.

回復 38# 的帖子

1.  
a) If there is NO supply, raising the demand to infinity do not help.  
b) When the supply curve is asytompotic, rising the demand a liitle would raise the cost indefinitely.
c) The un-protected is facing a problem of not enough resources!  They cannot pay a price no matter what.  The common economic model would suggest they attempt an alternative.  If you cannot get an LV (no matter how much you need it), you will try get a fake one.  If you cannot get the kidney transplant in the market in India (even if it is vital to you),  you will try to get a kidney washing machine.  (If neither work, as many have, we have one unstaisfied customer...)

For student that laern how to use the washing machine, many learn to use the machine incorrectly (eventually breaking the machine, a common phenomenon)

THere is 3 phenomenon:
1) The well protected and well trained.  They use the machine properly and nothing happen
2) The well protected but not trained. The cannot use the machine but will try.
3) The un-protected and clever.  They can use the machine but will break it.
4) The un-protected and "pragmatic".  They cannot use the machine, give up, and seek alternative.  (Anything from changing your clothes less often, to attempting a hand wash.)

It is just a matter fact that I observe they will give up.

2. Then a parent throw an 11-year old intot he water, he/she will drown just like the baby.  We already heard of young children drowning themselves in ponds and pools.  In fact, according to freakonomic, it is a rather common household harzard for children to have a pond in the backyard.  You are not suppose to put an 11 year old alone besides a pond or he/she will have a high chance of getting himself/herself drown (statistically speaking, high then having a gun).

The baby will struggle when in water.  It will make an effort to survive.  The instinct to survive is a natural for young and old.  Only that it is just like the mentally disable - they both lack the ability to survive (for the mentally disable, they lack the mental capacity, for the baby and child, he/she lack the skills and muscles.)

3.  My elementary school is al a Christian school.  They have such lessson.

For you question, it is deiscuss in Legco in 2006

(一)教育署(現為教育統籌局)於1997年編訂《學校性教育指引》,目的為提高學校對推行性教育的關注。此指引主要是在推行性教育時,給學校作參考之用,不應被視作一般學科的課程指引。其後,在2001年的課程改革中,教育統籌局強調整全的教育,將已往不同的跨學科課程,例如:公民教育、德育、性教育、健康教育、環保教育等作出統整並歸納在德育及公民教育之下。德育及公民教育重培養學生正確的價值觀和態度、建立健康的生活方式、掌握生活技能,去面對和處理日常生活和社會的問題;同時幫助學生學習怎樣面對自己成長的挑戰,與及處理他們對性的疑惑和困擾,例如:約會和戀愛、性別意識、性騷擾等。德育及公民教育已涵蓋絕大部分培育學生全人發展的重要經歷,足以配合現時年青人的發展需要。

They have been working on it all along!  It is there for quite some time.

2.  They are not wrong because they are different, no where did I say that.  They are incorrect in not wearing the seat belt because it affect their survival much more than what they think.

If after they understand the gravity of the issue ans still insist on doing it, it is their responsibility morally.  (But the society will still need to foot their bill since they cannot take the responsibility physically.  The current option in escaping it is to buy a much much much higher insurance.  Unfortunately, there is no such insurance as the policy is difficult to make.)

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It is NOT increase sexual behaviour, but sex is just like eating.  There is a drive behind it.  It is a habit.  (For teens, it is a habit to be developed that will have a life long effect.)  A person become addicted to sex much more easily than food (it is the same chemical, just much heavier doses)
Below is the type of sex education for grade 6 student in HK

http://www.ied.edu.hk/pse/teach_sex_con_1.html




[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-1-23 10:03 編輯 ]
4.  
a) There are insurance paid by both side.
b) Grief by everyone
c) Talent lost
d) Tax dollar invested and lost
e) Court charges
etc....

Sorry to say, no man is an island, we live in a society where everyone affect everyone.  (Suicide in and of itself is immoral in the sense that it hurt your parents, at least in the tradition Chinese sense.)

To be irrational, all he.she is need is to evalute the information incorrectly.  While evaluating it correctly may yeild different result, but chance is very high that the people who do not wear a seat belt is not in such an area.

3. It is guidelines for school.  If the school do not follow guidelines from the board, they will be responsible for whatever consequences.  If sex education fail in youth, all the more reason to ban sex for children too young.  Just as if the driving lesson fail, it is all the better reason to not give out the driving licence.

2. If it is done by an old man for the same reason under the same situation, it will still be irrational.  If somehow his spirit replaced the girl and did exactly the same thing, he will still be irrational.

It is not me think- you think.  It takes mental capacity to think rationally.  There is evidence why she should not have sex.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/child/links.htm

1d.  It is easier to get it wrong when using the machina alone.  There are many useful experience and points  the parents will and have pass onto the kids as they protect him/her.

If breaking the ashing machine is ok, I guess it is ok.

1c.  there are choices.  The lonely one can choose to hand wash, the option of using the machine correctly may not be on the menu for them.  In another word, the option of the washing the clothes is somethime non-existant for the unprotected.  

the choice is more or less like

Protected
1. To let parents do the job (And get nagged, and feel guilty.  A bit of cost, a bit of gain.)
2. Do the job by themselves under the careful guidiance of the parent (Washing become an easy job here, cost is low, benefit high.  Being praise by the parent is a benefit.)
3. None take up the job. (And the parent will still take up the job and act as a model, making 2 easier next time.  Which is really option 1.)

For those students without parents, they could only have 2 choices:
1. to wash by themselves, or  (Which may not be available techically, especially doing it correctly.  Cost is high, benefit is average.)
2. perform a bare minimum of hand wash, or wash and broke the washing machine. (Easy fix.  Cost is low, benefit is minimum)
3. none wash for them. (Cost is zero, negative benefit.  It happen when you can't afford the price, which is not unlikely.)

For 11 year old, http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/child/middlechildhood9-11.htm  It is not a wonder why they are not allow to drive a car, work in factory with heavy machinery, vote, be a part of jury, smoke...etc

If a woman get herself into a situation where she is forcefully thrown into water without swimming ability, with all other things being equal, she is quite irrational about it.  (The man in this case is not forcing the girl into it, the girl get herself into it.)

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-1-24 18:50 編輯 ]
1a. The actually quantity produced is dictated by demand and supply curve.  We would need both.  Looking at the demand curve alone, we read something like if for price of X, Y will be demanded.  Nothing about the actual quantity is said.

In this case, suppose Y washing is demanded by the unprotected, the price should  X/washing.  If the price is high, there will be no deal, if the price is low, more washing will be demanded.  The eventual number of washing is dictated by the supply curve.  

What is the cost of producing the washing?  It can be a flat line (mass production), it can be an asymptoptic curve.

You cannot have water in desert just because you want it, you can't wash you garment whe you have no garment, you can't learn how-to when you do not have the manual, you can't figure out how to when the mental ability of reading a manual is lacking, you can't develope the mental ability when you are not loved.  Every supply curve is asymtoptic at the utmost right because of physical limitation.  The only question is how fast the person is approaching it.  As a matter of fact, it is easy for the protected to forget the asymtoptic end because they rarely reach it, and easy for the unprotected to forget the flat possibility because they live at the edge.

It is differernt for different people.  The protected people has a flatter supply curve, the information and resources (including a helping hand from parents) they need is ready avaiable, for the unprotected, thereach their asymptoptic end quickly.

You either read the quantity demanded, or the price.  But never can you read the quantity produced at the end by the demand curve alone.

Anyway, as the population demand more of something, the demand curve shift (like food market nowadays).  As the need is more urgent, the elasticity change (like the insulin market).  The moving point on the demand is only for change in supply (with price) because the supply line will combine with the demand to determine "the point".

Price is also an issue.  When you have to pay a heavy price just to wash your clothes, how much resources will be left for friendship?  With division of labour and ecnomic of scale in a family, the supply curve also move to the left due to efficiency.  (It is not a coincident that married couple live a better life in general.  Poor Dye is still single.)

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I like your attitude.  I think we are alike in our inquisitive sense.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-1-24 18:41 編輯 ]

回復 45# 的帖子

Option 3
Have the baby in day care center (By government?)

Option 4
Have the baby handld by a house worker

Option 5
Go to a less crowded market

Option 6
Make sure the husband is at home even if he is just stitting there watching TV when the wife go shopping

Option 7
Ask you
a) Neigbout
b) Friends
for help.

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Warning:  Leaving a child at home alone is known to cause death.
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For a large size family, we may have a coordination problem.  For a family of N member, the commication channel = (1+N)N/2

Also, we are humans, not bots.  Our natural sexual jeoulousy will cause internal conflict.

There is a cost in running a large family that people can decide if they want it or not.

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If  achieving the same goal at a lower cost (efficiency) will not shift supply curve, what will?

Here is a page on basic economics

"2. A change in technology."

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For how the quantity is determine, please see

[url=http://william-king.www.drexel.edu/top/prin/txt/SDch/SD15.html]http://william-king.www.drexel.edu/top/prin/txt/SDch/SD15.html[/url]

"This sort of "equilibrium" exists when the price is just high enough so that the quantity supplied just equals the quantity demanded. If we superimpose the demand curve and the supply curve in the same diagram, we can easily visualize this "equilibrium" price. It is the price at which the two curves cross. The corresponding quantity is the quantity that would be traded in a market equilibrium"

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Invisible hands, invisible hands.  The price will MOVE towards the equilibrium.  But while we are at it, there will be excess and shortage.

Besides, technology is "chucky".  If the equilibrium is at 1.5 wife, there is really nothin we can do about it.  (Either 1 and shortage, or 2 and excess)

Here is a another explanation for why there is excess and shortage: we do not have perfect information

[url=http://william-king.www.drexel.edu/top/prin/txt/controv2/un0a.html]http://william-king.www.drexel.edu/top/prin/txt/controv2/un0a.html[/url]

(Nonetheless, just like employee will "tends" to find a job, so do the price tends toward EQ)
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For law of demand, the last word is critically important

At a higher price, the quantity demanded will be less, ceteris paribus. (Ceteris paribus means: if nothing else changes to offset the change in price).

Quantity DEMANDED.  Not just quantity.  Because we also have quantity SUPPLIED (The true determinant of the quantity at the end because we can demand all we like but if no one supply the goods, it will not fall from sky).

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-1-28 16:13 編輯 ]

回復 50# 的帖子

Option 4:  How many domestic helpe is there in HK compare to the abuse case?

Option 5:  City Super is not crowded.  ParkN Shop (if you know when) is not crowded.

Option 6:  Wait till he goes home?  
a) Shop once a week during holiday
b) ParkNShop open till 10:00pm.
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If we open the choice for 2wife/husband, we will also open the option for 2 husband/wife.

Since aniceint time,  2wife/husband is an open option in China but most people still choose 1 wife/husband.  

I am in total support of opening the option. but family should consider the choice carefully.
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Efficiency in my courses is always about the ratio of benefit/cost
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3. It is tending to the equilibrium.  No one said the market will be at precisely the equilibrium.

In typical day-to-day life, things are counted not in a continuous manner.  You eitherhave 1 machine or 2 or none.  It is imposible to have 1.1 machine.
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4.  Price do change.  We have inflation?

Excess in demand and supply is accounted for in he equilibrium model.
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If the weather is bad, the supply curve for the crop will move up.  If the demand do not change, the price will move up and quantities smaller.

But what if the bad weather is atticipated and the price has already moved up and quantities has already dropped?

What if there is a news blockage and the shift in supply is not known yet (till delivery)?

All these are reality.  The world is complex.  Nonetheless, it is still possible to study models with multiple factors.
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Not ceterius paribus.  But quantity DEMANDED the word "demanded"

The demand curve said nothing about the quantity traded, but only DEMANDED.  The supply curve said nothing about quantity traded but quantity SUPPLIED.

I think you are still get the wrong idea about law of demand.

The law of demand said if you lower the price, the quantity DEMANDED will be higher.

In reality, if you lower the price, the quantity DEMANDED may increase (As the CEO interviewed y Economic Journal said, it does not work when you are selling Luxury due to human psychology).  But there is certainly cases (for example, the housing renting market in Toronto when the goverment lower the price by law), that causes the quantity traded to decrease.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-1-29 10:00 編輯 ]
Option 4 There are about 180,000 asian foreign worker (2006).  in which 90% of Filipino and Indonesian will fit into the category of elementary worker.  in which most are really domestic worker.  You are talkig about something around 162, 000 workers here.  

How many case have you read in the newspaper?

Option 5 The few are example.  There is also Hua Yun that is not crowded.  Mother can proceed carefully in narrow place and the risk will be minimum.

For freshness, there is refrigerator.  In any case, the parents are unwilling to sacrifice a bit of freshness of food for the safety of their child?

Option 6 For a family of 3, the space needed for a week of food is not that much.  As my cousin said, they will need to learn refrigerator space management.

Option 7 So one of the spouse work overtime ALL the time?

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Efficiency is used in many different area of study.  The benefit can include many things depending which perspective is taken.  

From dictionary
(1): effective operation as measured by a comparison of production with cost (as in energy, time, and money) (2): the ratio of the useful energy delivered by a dynamic system to the energy supplied to it
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3) EQ is not stationary.

For supply, we can ask/survey the suppliers.  I am pretty sure it can be done because I am part of this side of the system.

For demand, we have market research.

I am not an economist.  I imagine it takes some innovation to figure it out.  It does not take a spaceship to determine the distance of stars, it is only a matter of innovation.

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Do you know why price and quantity will tend to EQ?

If the price is below EQ, there will be more goods supplied than demanded.  The supplier will compete to lower the price to get the overstock sold.

If the price is above EQ, there will be less goods supplied than demanded.  The consumer will compete with higher price to get the limited supply.

No God is needed.  Just invisible hand at work.
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For the weather model, there is less food at the end to trade because of the weather.  It is a FACT the weather model begin with.  We can't sell food we do not have.  If the bad weather do not affect the production, it is not much of an influence (unless we have mis-information).

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If real life has may variable, we cannot ignore them in real life.  The task is to model the real world?  Not to make things simple?
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