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抽刀斷水 發表於 2021/12/9 09:53

精神自由的殘殺者——宗教裁判所

[b]第一節:  宗教裁判所的由來[/b]

[i]「提要」人類精神自由的歷史,是一部充滿艱辛、困苦和血淚的歷史。今天享受着言論與思想自由的文明世界,也曾經歷過不容異端、不許妄議的黑暗時刻。這個黑暗時刻的象徵就是宗教裁判所。[/i]

問:這個題目很重要,回顧這段歷史,人們才會意識到,人的精神自由不是輕易就有的。

答:對。人們為獲得這個自由,經歷過艱苦的鬥爭,對精神自由的壓制,曾經極為殘酷。當然,我用曾經這個詞,是指歐美文明國家所經歷的社會進步過程。其實在當今世界上,專制暴政對人的思想自由、言論自由的箝制,其殘酷的程度,不輸歐洲中世紀早期創立的宗教裁判所。不過他們現在是使用高科技的手段來審查言論,牽箝制思想自由的表達。所以,了解宗教裁判所的歷史,可以讓聽友們更清楚地認識當今世界的實際狀況,因為人是格外健忘的。首先,我們先看看異端這個詞最早的含義。研究宗教裁判所歷史的英國人愛德華·伯曼有一個定義,他認為,“異端的定義,可解釋為‘反對天主教會的天主教正統教條的一種神學觀點或教義’”。這是一個準確的定義,不過後來,異端這個詞,用來指對某種佔主導地位的意識形態的反抗和批判。所謂佔主導地位的意識形態,往往是指和權力相聯繫的某些教條,比如與君士坦丁大帝的皇權相關的《尼西亞信經》,與共產黨統治權相關的馬列主義。有一個有趣的現象,所有實行民主憲政的國家,憲法中都不會有由某種主義為指導的內容,憲政之下,人們只談權利,不談主義。比如美國憲法開篇就說,“我們認為以下真理是不言而喻的:人人生而平等,人人享有上帝賦予的某些不可讓予的權利,其中包括生命權、自由權和追求幸福的權利”。而那些一黨專權的國家,則往往會在憲法中宣示,他們是依照某種主義來治理國家的。比如中國憲法中,就規定馬列主義、三個代表、新時代新思想為指導。北朝鮮憲法中,則有以總體思想為指導等等。

問:所以在一黨專權的國家中,就會有異端問題。

答;是的,因為讓某種主義成為一種佔主導地位的教條,則這個教條就是對統治權的辯護,你反對這個教條,實際上是向權力挑戰,所以自然你是異端。所以,伯曼又說,“只有當實際存在着一種正統教義的情況下,才可能產生異端”。而正統教義之成為不可挑戰的,那是因為權力是不可挑戰的。在十二世紀末,羅馬教廷日益強大,不僅把教權牢牢控制在自己手裡,而且試圖控制世俗權力。1198-1216年間任教皇的英諾森三世,是個轉折性的人物。伯曼指出,“正是在他治下,教廷逐漸成為中央集權的立法官僚機構,其權力所及,覆蓋了人類生活的所有領域”。也正是在他的治下,組成了討伐異端阿爾比派的十字軍。這位英諾森三世自稱“萬王之王”,他有一套專權的說辭,就是所謂“太陽、月亮說”。他宣稱,教皇代表耶穌基督,是神在塵世的代理人。他是代表神行使統治權,所以,英諾森三世要求由神權賦予皇權以塵世的統治權。神權必須主導一切。他說,“教皇和國王,猶如太陽和月亮,月亮從太陽借得了光輝,國王從教皇手中獲得權力”。正在英諾森三世樹立教廷對信眾從人身到思想的完全控制時,一個反對教廷權威、否定天主教信條的宗教派別阿爾比派蓬勃發展起來。

問:這一派就是以法國南部阿爾比城為中心的那個派別吧?

答:是的。這一派還有一個名字叫卡塔爾派。卡塔爾的意思是純凈,所以人們又稱他們是純凈派。但是後來他們的活動中心集中到法國南部阿爾比城,並傳播到意大利,這一派最重要的思想是,沒有一個唯一的上帝,操縱宇宙的是兩種最高力量,一是慈善而光明的上帝,它創造並主導人的精神世界,另一個是邪惡黑暗的上帝,它創造物質世界。而人在物質世界中就會墮落。不屬靈的本性是人的物質本性,它產生慾望、邪惡、不義。其實,聽友們應該知道,這一派就是摩尼教兩元論的變種。它的信條直接挑戰羅馬天主教廷。它所提出的日常生活三大戒律,也就是一,完全素食,肉蛋奶、奶酪都在禁食之列。二,絕對禁止殺生,反對任何征戰,三,戒絕所有形式的性關係。這三條讓羅馬教廷下不來台,因為我們知道這三條恰恰是腐敗的教廷的日常生活。教皇和高階神職人員,整日享受口腹之樂。而且教廷竭力組織十字軍征戰,搶劫戰利品,充實教皇金庫。加上有些教皇情人無數,私生子一大堆。這是阿爾比派完全不能忍受的。因此,對英諾森三世而言,阿爾比派是最大的異端。所以他組織十字軍討伐阿爾比派,大開殺戒。原本用來征伐穆斯林異教徒的十字軍,調轉矛頭對付本教異端。可見,異端對教廷更具威脅。

問:顯然內部的叛逆更危險,因為它直接威脅到正統教條。

答:是的。專斷權力對內部異端往往下手更狠。所以英諾森三世在1215年召開第四次拉特蘭宗教會議,頒布教皇敕令,其中專門規定了鎮壓異端的條款。他規定,所有被定為異端的人,要交付審判,沒收財產。如果有人包庇異端分子,則一律革除教籍。凡參加過鎮壓異端的信眾,享受赴聖地的十字軍騎士待遇。舉報異端者有獎勵。這裡最重要的是異端要被交付法庭審判。這就把不同思想、不同信仰,當成了罪。用我們今天的話說,叫思想罪。我們知道,法律是面對人的行為的。也就是說,只有當你的行為觸犯了法律,你才能受到審判。可宗教法庭把信仰上的歧見當作犯罪,英諾森三世開啟了異端審判的先例。雖然,他還沒有設立宗教裁判所,但是,他批准成立了兩個天主教修會,就是方濟各會與多明我會。他給這兩個修會的任務,就是搜尋異端,然後審判。多明我會的宗旨,就明確規定了,“剷除異端,消滅邪惡,宣傳信仰,培養道德”。所以我們可以知道,凡企圖壓制不同觀點,要求思想統一,進而掌握絕對權力,一統天下的人,必然要培植黨羽、組織打手。這些黨羽最愛使用的方法,就是鼓勵告密、揭發。他們像鷹犬一樣緊盯獵物,哪怕只有蛛絲馬跡,他們也要順藤摸瓜,要把任何不同的思想觀點,統統清理乾淨。這樣才能保護正統教條不受侵犯。從而,保證絕對權力不受侵犯。所以聽友們要記住,所有不容人質疑的所謂正統教條,都是直接服務於權力的。好,我們下次再接着談。

[b]第二節 鎮壓異端的制度化——宗教裁判所的誕生[/b]

[i]「提要」在鎮壓阿爾比派的過程中,教廷更真切地意識到異端的頑強生命力。因為異端也是一種信仰,它的信奉者甚至比正統派更虔誠。教廷意識到,對異端的鎮壓必須制度化,經常化,要把異端思想消滅在萌芽中。[/i]

問:鎮壓阿爾比派,用了20年的時間,可見教廷想消滅異端並非輕而易舉。

答:是這樣。因為異端也是一種信仰,而且它的信徒往往更堅定、頑強。英諾森三世繼位後,對鎮壓阿爾比派,下了死命令。因為他是一個絕不肯與任何人分享權力的人,也不肯寬容任何異端思想。他要牢牢控制宗教的神權和世俗的君權。聽友們應該還記得他那著名的太陽月亮說,他命令:“要對異端使用開除出教的精神之劍,如果無濟於事,那就對他們使用鐵劍”。當時阿爾比城屬圖盧茲伯爵雷蒙管轄,而雷蒙伯爵同情阿爾比派,對英諾森三世的鎮壓行動不積極配合。於是這位教皇發布敕令,要對雷蒙伯爵的領地發動十字軍討伐。敕令中宣稱,“基督的戰士們,用神賦予我們的一切手段,消滅瀆神行為。高舉你們的雙手,抖擻精神,打敗異端的傳播,要比對待伊斯蘭教徒,更加殘酷地對待他們,因為他們比伊斯蘭教徒更壞。至於雷蒙伯爵,要把他和他的支持者趕出他們的城堡,奪取他們的土地,讓真正的天主教徒佔有異端者的領地”。聽友們應該記得,我們上次談到,那種要統一思想,一統天下的權力,整治內部異端比整治外部敵人要狠得多。研究宗教裁判所歷史的董進泉先生指出:“經驗向羅馬教廷表明,異端者隨時隨地都有,但是教廷不可能保持一支常備的十字軍,必須有一種系統的制度,必須有一個能夠嚴密監視,並立即撲滅不論何時何地冒出來的異端者的強有力的機構”。

問:看來只要把鎮壓異端當作要務,就必須培養一個常備的鷹犬機構。

答:沒錯,這是一條定律。所以在第四次拉特蘭會議上,就專門針對異端,作了以下規定,一,對任何反對天主教正統教義的異端,必須處以絕罰,並交給世俗政權審判。教士則撤職,財產則一律沒收。二,對疑似異端者,如不能證明自己無辜,也要處以絕罰。若一年之內仍不能證明自己無辜,則等同異端,交付審判。三,支持異端的人,或給異端者提供住房、幫助者,開除教籍,不可擔任公職,並失去遺囑權和繼承權。死後不準葬於教堂基督徒墓地。四,世俗政權要 配合教會懲治異端,若包庇異端,則教皇有權廢除其附庸對其之義務。領地可由天主教徒佔領。五,各級主教,若轄區內有異端未加清除,則予以撤職。各級教職皆須委派專門人員,調查教區內居民的思想狀況,掌握居民中誰參加秘密聚會,誰行為不軌。

問:這些規定實際上已讓所謂異端插翅難逃。

答:是的。這基本上能做到,你一有不同想法,便立即被察覺、監視和懲罰。為更有效地做到這一點,上次我們提到的多明我會和方濟各會的成員,就成了最有效、最直接的執行者。所以房龍說他們是“真正的信仰的警犬”。但是在英諾森三世時,還把異端交給世俗法庭審判,而到了1252年,教皇英諾森四世,則成立了宗教法庭,至於什麼時候被命名為宗教裁判所Inquisition,歷史上有很多爭論。但是,其起源應該來自英諾森四世的訓諭《論連根拔起》,就是這個訓諭,提出了組織宗教法庭的各個細節。自此,宗教法庭意味着,宗教的勢力,可以動用行政手段,以法律的名義鎮壓異端。這是教會不寬容精神的制度化。不僅如此,建立一套異端審判制度,還必須有一套理由,來論證它的正當性。這個任務是由中世紀最重要的神學家托馬斯·阿奎納來完成的。我們在前面曾介紹過這個人,他學識淵博,思力極深,人稱“天使博士”,但他在面對異端時,卻毫無寬容心。他宣稱,“敗壞作為精神生活的宗教信仰,比起偽造維持世俗生活的貨幣來,問題要嚴重得多。所以如果說,貨幣偽造者和其他的壞人,由世俗當局毫不容情地處以死刑是公道的,那麼異端分子一旦 被證明有相信異端的罪行時,就可以有充分得多的理由,不但將他開除教籍,而且判處死刑”。只是他認為教會不該直接行使處罰權,而應交給世俗機關去處理,這顯得更虛偽。需要說一句的是,我們讀托馬斯·阿奎納的著作,可以看到他竭力宣揚基督的慈悲,他最重要的理論貢獻,是把“上帝面前,人人平等”當作自然法的要求,但面對異端時,他的理論就不能貫徹,以邏輯嚴密著稱的阿奎納,就會推導出完全不能自洽的結論。這看似一個悲劇,但卻有深刻的道德哲學上的意義。

問:這恐怕要在人類精神進步的過程中來理解。

答:是的。寬容這個觀念,直到啟蒙時代才成為進步思想家的共識,但在當今世界上,它仍不能成為人們普遍的行動指南。大哲康德有一篇重要的文章,討論人類是否不斷改善前進。他認為,“如果要問人類整體是否不斷地朝着改善前進,那麼它這裡所涉及的,就不是人類的自然史,而是道德史了”。好,我們接着談宗教裁判所。宗教法庭自成立之始,就努力營造恐怖氣氛,教廷深知,只要在無知信眾的心中,植入恐懼的種子,他們就能輕易操縱信眾。當時在歐洲,只有教廷能建立廣泛的社會網絡,因為在每一個城市、集鎮,甚至在窮鄉僻壤,都會有教堂,有教士在掌管人的生老病死。所以搜尋懲治異端的網絡,能深入最基層。可以說當時的歐洲,只有教廷有長臂管轄權。研究中世紀宗教裁判所的亨利·查爾斯·李就指出,“宗教裁判所之手伸得長長的,它的記憶絕對正確,一方面由於圍繞着它的活動的秘密性,另一方面由於它不可思議的警惕性。宗教裁判所引起了神秘的恐怖,一次對異端者成功的逮捕,會帶來刑訊逼供得到的口供,能夠揭露當時自以為安全的幾百人的蹤跡,而每一個新的受難者,會作出一系列新的揭發,異端者彷彿生活在任何時候都會爆發,並吞噬掉他們的火山上,因為在人們眼中,宗教裁判所是無所不知、無所不能、無處不在的”。李的這段話,說明了宗教裁判所的組織結構和運作手段,它的具體操作方式,我們下回再談。

[b]宗教裁判所第三節 一套製造冤獄的嚴密方法[/b]

[i]「提要」隨着鎮壓異端成為教廷的重要任務,它設計出一套方法,用來清除一切與教廷的教義不同的觀點,以此樹立教廷不可動搖的權威。這些方法實質上是一套專門用來製造冤獄的邪惡方法,它反映出扼殺精神與信仰自由時,必然表現出的道德墮落。[/i]

問:那這是一套什麼樣的方法呢?

答:這套方法可以用八個字來概括:縝密、專橫、殘酷、墮落。上次我們提到英諾森四世發布了名為《連根拔起》的通諭,其核心就是規定了那些可以達到根除異端的方法。亨利·李認為這份通諭,“企圖讓世俗權力完全服從於宗教裁判所,規定把根除異端作為國家的首要任務”。伯曼則認為,這份通諭,“有效地在意大利建立了警察國家”,因為它在其中規定 :一,可以使用酷刑來獲取口供;二,可以採用火刑處死;三,組織秘密警察,為宗教裁判所效力,四;給討伐異端的人同遠徵聖地的十字軍騎士同等特權;五,對信奉異端者的懲罰,可以延之後代。聽友們可以看出,這五條實際上確立了迫害精神與信仰自由的最基本的方法,以致在當今一些國家仍在使用。1242年,曾幫助格里高利九世起草關於宗教裁判所條文的雷蒙擬定了一份審判異端的指南,這是一部詳細具體的迫害指南。

問:那你給聽友們介紹一下這部迫害異端的指南吧。

答:好。我稍微講仔細一點,聽友們就可以明白宗教裁判所的實質是什麼。指南共有十項內容:第一,如何判定異端。它規定,凡聽清潔派傳道,或認為清潔派也是好人的就是異端。也就是說,一個人除了教廷的那些正統的教義之外,還聽取了別人的講道,而且認為講得有道理,那你就是異端。打個比方說,除了中央台新聞聯播,你還有別的信息來源,而且你認為這些官方以外的信息是真的,那麼,你就是屬於該受審判的異端。正像文革中有一項罪名,叫收聽敵台,說的就是這種罪名。從這個異端開始,就牽連出了一大堆的罪名 ,比如,隱瞞異端者,也就是知情不報,包庇異端者,也就是向異端者保證不告發的人,窩藏者,也就是為異端提供住所或者收容異端的人,袒護者,也就是為異端說了幾句好話的人。這簡直就是布下了天羅地網,只要你不是立即舉報揭發,你就和異端同罪。第二,自證有罪。這就是說,一個人受到了異端指控,在一年的時間裡,他無法證明自己不是異端,則罪名自動成立。第三,異端分子被捕後,如果拒絕認罪悔罪,則要交付監禁或處以火刑。如果異端分子認罪了,那麼你就要終身佩戴恥辱標記,一個特別顏色的雙十字架。聽友們從這兒就可以知道,後來納粹讓猶太人佩戴黃色大衛星,文革中紅衛兵讓那些五類分子佩戴銘牌,標明地富反壞右,這些實際上就是 迫害人的傳統做法。第四,規定了異端悔罪時候所必須使用的措辭,我,xxx犯了不信天主等等罪行,聽信了某某派的邪說,我對不起天主,我悔罪,等等。第五,規定了異端自我懺悔的標準模式,開頭必須稱,“本人以全能上帝和《聖經》的名義,宣示堅持天主教信仰”。第六,規定了為疑似異端者作證的模式。證詞開頭必須說,我xxx宣示,堅信xxx不是異端。

問:這四、五、六三條就是規定了一種語言表達模式。

答:對,不過這可並不是文字遊戲,而是通過強迫你必須以一種指定的方式說話,自然就強迫你也用這種方式來思考。因為語言表達的方式代表的是人的思想方式。可第七條就不是關於該怎麼說了,而是要讓異端死無葬身之地。它規定,如果在異端審判時,發現異端者已經死了,而且已經下葬,則要掘屍、焚毀,也就是說你一旦被認定有過異端思想,生前要受追查,死後也不得安寧。由於在中世紀,人們對死亡格外重視,人們認為,人死後靈魂依然活着,所以掘墳、曝屍的處罰,可謂是極其殘酷的。它會讓人產生極大的恐懼。第八條,規定教士可以通過信眾的懺悔發現異端,這是因為信眾可能接觸過有異端思想的人,但他可能感覺這人是個好人,所以他並沒有去舉報,但是在懺悔時,他會一對一地向懺悔師講述真情,這就是人們常說的secret religieux,宗教秘密。這種懺悔常規是不能公開的,但是為了讓異端無處藏身,這種懺悔中的坦白也可以當作罪證。第九條,規定異端分子的坦白與悔過的程序;第十條,則規定懲罰的方式。其實,就是各種肉體折磨的方式。據研究宗教裁判所的伯曼先生統計,當時最常用的是六種體刑,第一就是水刑,這是指把浸透水的綢布,塞進異端分子的口中,然後從鼻子往下灌水,這能使囚犯處在窒息的昏迷中。第二是火煎刑,方法是把囚徒捆住,在腳上塗滿豬油,置於火前,讓油脂慢慢融化,來煎烤囚徒。第三是倒掛刑,把囚徒倒掛在一個滑輪上,把他拉起再猛然放下,同時鞭打,反覆吊起放下。第四是車輪刑,把囚犯四肢伸張,綁在車輪上,轉動車輪,同時用棍棒擊打囚徒的身體。第五是拉肢刑,受刑者被綁在滾動的輪子上,轉動輪子拉扯囚徒的四肢,邊審問邊轉動滾輪,直到拉斷囚徒的肢體。第六是夾板刑,把囚徒兩腿用夾板捆緊,然後從腿和夾板之間打入楔子,不斷增加楔子的厚度,直到粗繩嵌入受刑者的肢體。

問:宗教裁判所有這麼多刑法來折磨人,真是難以想象。

答:所以聽友們可以從中明白一個道理,有些人號稱追求崇高的理想,而結果卻是對人最殘酷的迫害,宗教裁判所就是一個典型的例子。它的主旨是讓人徹底地去忠於耶穌基督,去信仰那些關於拯救的宗教理想。他們認為,這些迫害活動都是為天主服務,都是為了讓人得救而進入天堂。實際上,卻製造出無比殘酷的地獄。他們的天堂是虛無的,他們的地獄卻是實在的。陀思妥耶夫斯基在他的名著《卡拉馬卓夫兄弟》中,有一節就專門討論這個問題。陀思妥耶夫斯基說,“常說人野獸般的殘忍,但這對野獸是極其不公正的,野獸從來不像人這樣殘忍,老虎只會撕咬,而人卻在殘忍里加上了某種精製的東西,神秘的和享受的幸災樂禍”。在陀思妥耶夫斯基看來,人們為了達到宗教所允諾的那種天堂的和諧,不惜在人間犯下殘忍的暴行。他說,“人們給和諧的估價太高了,為了進入和諧世界,我們付不起這麼高的代價”。我們知道,設立宗教裁判所,就是為了彰揚天主的榮耀,為了保護所謂天主的聖意和一個天堂的美好許諾,而陀思妥耶夫斯基卻宣稱,“我完全拒絕這種最高的和諧,這個和諧還抵不上一個孩子的眼淚”。這種偉大的人道主義情懷,是人類精神的碩果。這個話題,下面我會專門再談。


(一)
[url]https://www.rfi.fr/tw/%E5%B0%88%E6%AC%84%E6%AA%A2%E7%B4%A2/%E6%AD%90%E6%B4%B2%E6%80%9D%E6%83%B3%E6%96%87%E5%8C%96%E9%95%B7%E5%BB%8A/20211124-%E7%B2%BE%E7%A5%9E%E8%87%AA%E7%94%B1%E7%9A%84%E6%AE%98%E6%AE%BA%E8%80%85-%E5%AE%97%E6%95%99%E8%A3%81%E5%88%A4%E6%89%80%E7%AC%AC%E4%B8%80%E7%AF%80-%E5%AE%97%E6%95%99%E8%A3%81%E5%88%A4%E6%89%80%E7%9A%84%E7%94%B1%E4%BE%86[/url]

(二)
[url]https://www.rfi.fr/tw/%E5%B0%88%E6%AC%84%E6%AA%A2%E7%B4%A2/%E6%AD%90%E6%B4%B2%E6%80%9D%E6%83%B3%E6%96%87%E5%8C%96%E9%95%B7%E5%BB%8A/20211128-%E7%B2%BE%E7%A5%9E%E8%87%AA%E7%94%B1%E7%9A%84%E6%AE%98%E6%AE%BA%E8%80%85%E5%AE%97%E6%95%99%E8%A3%81%E5%88%A4%E6%89%80%E7%AC%AC%E4%BA%8C%E7%AF%80-%E9%8E%AE%E5%A3%93%E7%95%B0%E7%AB%AF%E7%9A%84%E5%88%B6%E5%BA%A6%E5%8C%96-%E5%AE%97%E6%95%99%E8%A3%81%E5%88%A4%E6%89%80%E7%9A%84%E8%AA%95%E7%94%9F[/url]

(三)
[url]https://www.rfi.fr/tw/%E5%B0%88%E6%AC%84%E6%AA%A2%E7%B4%A2/%E6%AD%90%E6%B4%B2%E6%80%9D%E6%83%B3%E6%96%87%E5%8C%96%E9%95%B7%E5%BB%8A/20211205-%E7%B2%BE%E7%A5%9E%E8%87%AA%E7%94%B1%E7%9A%84%E6%AE%98%E6%AE%BA%E8%80%85-%E5%AE%97%E6%95%99%E8%A3%81%E5%88%A4%E6%89%80%E7%AC%AC%E4%B8%89%E7%AF%80-%E4%B8%80%E5%A5%97%E8%A3%BD%E9%80%A0%E5%86%A4%E7%8D%84%E7%9A%84%E5%9A%B4%E5%AF%86%E6%96%B9%E6%B3%95[/url]

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/9 11:06

[i=s] 本帖最後由 beebeechan 於 2021/12/9 11:26 編輯 [/i]

這些一問一答的, 
問的人是誰。。。不打緊
答的人是甚麼身份。。。就重要了…


記得中英談判時, 有人問回歸後香港要不要解放軍駐軍
當時有個以為自己官位有點份量的官就答: 可以考慮不駐軍
點知, 馬上俾鄧小平大發雷霆痛罵: 胡說八道!!!


所以, 這個「答」,, 唔知夠唔夠斤両。

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/9 11:19

[i=s] 本帖最後由 beebeechan 於 2021/12/9 11:41 編輯 [/i]

[quote]問:那這是一套什麼樣的方法呢?

答:這套方法可以用八個字來概括:縝密、專橫、殘酷、墮落。上次我們提到英諾森四世發布了名為《連根拔起》的通諭,其核心就是規定了那些可以達到根除異端的方法。亨利·李認為這份通諭,“企圖讓世俗權力完全服從於宗教裁判所,規定把根除異端作為國家的首要任務”。伯曼則認為,這份通諭,“有效地在意大利建立了警察國家”,[color=orange]因為它在其中規定 :一,可以使用酷刑來獲取口供;二,可以採用火刑處死;三,組織秘密警察,為宗教裁判所效力,四;給討伐異端的人同遠徵聖地的十字軍騎士同等特權;五,對信奉異端者的懲罰,可以延之後代。[/color]聽友們可以看出,這五條實際上確立了迫害精神與信仰自由的最基本的方法,以致在當今一些國家仍在使用。1242年,曾幫助格里高利九世起草關於宗教裁判所條文的雷蒙擬定了一份審判異端的指南,這是一部詳細具體的迫害指南。[/quote]

這個「答」已經是典型的胡說八道,
「答」連《連根拔起》(ad exstirpanda)通諭的原文也未讀過, 馮京當馬涼。

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/9 11:21

[i=s] 本帖最後由 beebeechan 於 2021/12/9 11:39 編輯 [/i]

樓主只懂左搬右貼
不管尋根找底,
互聯網中的奴才

抽刀斷水 發表於 2021/12/9 12:21

[quote]這個「答」已經是典型的胡說八道,
「答」連《連根拔起》(ad exstirpanda)通諭的原文也未讀過, 馮京當馬 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/9 11:19[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147926&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]


    請問係咪講緊以下呢份?如你懂拉丁文原文,請幫忙看看英文翻譯是否準確。

1243-1254 – SS Innocentius IV – Bulla ‘Ad_Extirpanda’ [AD 1252-05-15]

A Proclamation of the Laws and Regulations to be Followed by Magistrates and Secular Officials against Heretics and their Accomplices and Protectors

Innocent, the Bishop, Servant of the Servants of God, to his beloved sons, the heads of state or rulers, ministers and citizens established in the states and districts of Lombardy, Riviera di Romagnola, and Marchia Tervisina, salvation and an apostolic benediction.

To root up from the midst of Christian people the weed of heretical wickedness, which infests the healthy plants more than it formerly did, pouring out licentiousness through the offices of the enemy of mankind in this age the more eagerly (as we address ourselves to the sweated labor of the task assigned us) the more dangerously we overlook the manner in which this weed runs riot among the Catholic growth. Desiring, then, that the sons of the church, and fervent adherents of the orthodox faith, rise up and make their stand against the artificers of this kind of evildoing, we hereby bring forth to be followed by you as by the loyal defenders of the faith, with exact care, these regulations, contained serially in the following document, for the rooting-up of the plague of heresy.

1. In what we gave to your community in apostolical writings, amounting to regulations that we wrote for your legal codes, never at any time to be repealed, making war according to these regulations against all heresy, which rears its head above this holy church, you have gone forward without stint. However, I have sent a letter to my beloved sons, the Dominican priors, provincials and inquisitors into heretical wickedness in Lombardy, Marchia Tervisina and Riviera di Romagnola, commanding each of you that you compel recalcitrant individuals by your excommunication and countries by your interdict to submit (sc. to the new regulations).

The Laws and Regulations then Are as Follows:

Law 1.

We decree that the head of state, whatever his rank or title, in each dominion, whether he is so situated at present, or to be so in the future, in Lombardy, Riviera di Romagnola, or Marchia Tervisina must unequivocally and unhesitatingly swear that he will inviolably preserve, and during his entire term of office see to it that everybody, both in his diocese or administrative domain and the lands subject to his power, shall observe, both what is written herein, and other regulations and laws both ecclesiastical and civil, that are published against heretical wickedness. And the oaths concerning these precisely-observed regulations and laws are to be accepted by whoever succeeds to the monarchical or gubernatorial dignity. Whoever defaults in this regard shall lose the character of head of state or governor. Heads of state and rulers so acting will lose absolutely all guarantees of non-aggression from other governments. No one is obliged to offer fealty to such persons, or ought to do so, even if, afterwards, they submit by swearing the oath. If any head of state or ruler refuses to obey, each and all, these statutes, or neglects them, besides the stigma of forswearing, and the disaster of eternal infamy, he shall undergo the penalty of seeing his country lose its borders, which penalty shall be imposed on him irrecoverably; the country will be converted to common use, because, specifically, a man forsworn and infamous, and, in effect, a protector of heretics, his faith compromised, has usurped the dignity and honor of governmental power; nor shall another head of state or ruler from anywhere replace him, or in any way, by any means, take to himself the vacated dignity or public office.

Law 2.

3. At the commencement of his term of office, at the assembly of citizens convoked as is the custom, by the authority of the city or feudal domain, the head of state or ruler of the city or feudal domain shall accuse of criminal conduct all heretics of both sexes, no matter by what name they appear on the rolls of citizens. And he will confirm his right to the office inherited from his predecessor in this manner. And furthermore, that no heretical man or woman may dwell, sojourn, or maintain a bare subsistence in the country, or any kind of jurisdiction or district belonging to it, whoever shall find the heretical man or woman shall boldly seize, with impunity, all his or their goods, and freely carry them off, to belong to the remover with full right, unless this kind of removing is restricted to persons designated by law.

Law 3.

This head of state or ruler, by the third day of his term of office, must appoint twelve upright and Catholic men, and two notaries and two servants, or as many as may be needed, selected by the Diocesan bishop if there is one and he wishes to take part; and two Dominicans and two Franciscans selected for this work by their priors, if the region has religious houses of those orders.

Law 4.

Those who are thus appointed may and should seize the heretical men and women and carry off their possessions and cause these to be carried off by others, and take the heretics, or cause them to be taken, into the custody of the Diocesan bishop or his surrogates, and see to it that these things are fully accomplished as well in the diocese as in its entire jurisdiction and district.

Law 5.

6. The head of state, or whatever ruler stands foremost in the public esteem, must cause the heretics who have been arrested in this manner to be taken to whatever jurisdiction the Diocesan, or his surrogate, is in, or whatever district, or city, or place the Diocesan bishop wishes to take them to.

Law 6.

7. The utterances of the aforementioned officials are to be faithfully accepted in every matter that regards their office, specially in the aforementioned oath; arguments tending to the contrary are not allowed, where two, three, or more of those present are such officials.

Law 7.

8. Moreover, when these officials are chosen, they shall swear to execute faithfully all these laws, and to the best of their ability, to tell nothing but the truth, in all those commitments, which as they belong to their office, they fully carry out.

Law 8.

9. And both the aforesaid twelve men and their aforesaid servants and notaries, whether acting as a group, or singly, shall, in all that belongs to their office, have full command, backed by the executive and punitive power of the state.

Law 9.

10. The head of state or ruler is obliged to treat as fixed and unrepealable all precepts which their office shall require them to utter, and to punish those who fail to conform to these precepts.

Law 10.

11. If the said officials shall at any time receive any damage either in their persons or their goods as a result of the performance of their duties, they shall be saved harmless by means of a full restitution.

Law 11.

12. Neither these officials, nor their successors, are permitted at any time to reach an agreement about what they are doing, or of what their duties consist, unless this agreement is dictated by the aforesaid Diocesan and religious orders.

Law 12.

13. The term of office of these officials shall last only six months, which when they have completed, the head of state is obliged to substitute for them according to the prescribed form, an equal number of officials who shall serve the aforesaid term in the same form in the following six-month period.

Law 13.

14. These officials shall receive out of the state treasury, or that of the district, when they leave them for the purpose of performing these duties, each of them 18 gold coins, which the head of state or ruler is obliged to give them or cause to be given them; if not then, before the third day after their return to the same city or district.

Law 14.

15. And beyond that they shall seize one-third of the heretics' property; one-third of the fines to which the heretics shall be sentenced shall go to the lesser officials who must content themselves with this pay.

Law 15.

16. But they shall not be, in any way, required to perform any other duty or work which interferes with, or might interfere with, this duty.

Law 16.

17. No legislation, passed or yet to be passed, shall have force to interfere with any of these official functions.

Law 17.

18. And if one of these officials, through incompetence, sloth, preoccupation with another task, or exceeding of the limits of his authority, is removed from office by the aforesaid Diocesan bishop and religious orders, the head of state or ruler must remove him by their command or word and, according to the prescribed form,
substitute another.

Law 18.

19. If one of these officials, faithlessly and falsely, exceeds the limits of his authority to give aid and comfort to persons in custody on heresy charges, besides everlasting infamy, which, as a protector of heretics, he shall incur, he shall be punished by the head of state or ruler according to the sentence of the aforesaid Diocesan and monastic orders of the place.

Law 19.

20. When the Diocesan, or his surrogate, or the inquisitors commissioned by the Apostolic See, arrive on their missions, the head of state and his vassals and other assistants will lend aid and will faithfully perform their duty with them. Anyone, moreover, whether he is present in the country or sent for to obtain his assistance there, whether in the state or in its jurisdiction, or any district of any kind, will be bound to give the aforesaid officials and their assistants counsel and help when they are trying to arrest a male or female heretic, or seize such a
person's belongings, or gather evidence; or enter a house, or a manor, or a hideaway to arrest heretics, on pain of paying 25 pounds in Imperials as a penalty or fine on their former loyalty changing, in whatever manner, to dereliction; the government of a city shall pay a hundred pounds, a manorial domain fifty imperials in coin.

Law 20.

21. Whoever shall have the audacity to arrange the escape from custody of a male or female heretic, or shall try to prevent the arrest of such a person: or shall prevent the entry of an official into any house, or tower, or any place to hinder arrest, or prevent the gathering of evidence concerning such persons, shall have all his goods, according to the law at Padua when Frederick was emperor there, consigned to the state in perpetuity, and the
house that was barred against the official shall be levelled with the ground and its rebuilding prohibited, and the belongings found therein shall be awarded to the officials making the arrest; and if the heretics are found as a result of this prohibition or special preventive measure, the borough shall forfeit to the state two hundred pounds; localities both of the boroughs and the state fifty Imperials, unless within three days the would-be liberator or
liberators of the heretics are brought before the head of state for a personal interview.

Law 21.

22. Above all, the head of state or ruler must hold all male and female heretics who shall be arrested from this date, in the custody of Catholic men appointed by the Diocesan if there is one, and the abovementioned monastic orders, in a safe and secure prison set aside for them, in which only they will be held, away from thieves and violators of the secular criminal code, till their cases are decided; expenses to be paid by the state or the
administrative district.

Law 22.

23. If at any time a non-heretical man or woman state that heretics in custody, who have already confessed, are no heretics; or if perhaps the non-heretics demand that the aforesaid fraudulent persons should be released from life imprisonment, though they are nevertheless convicted heretics and must be acknowledged such; the persons who create this snare, accordingly to the aforesaid law shall resign all their property to the state in perpetuity.

Law 23.

24. The head of state and ruler of whatever kind are especially obliged to present all male and female heretics, under whatever name they are accused, within fifteen days after their arrest, to the Diocesan or his surrogate, or to the inquisitors of heresy, to perform the examination of themselves and their heresies.

Law 24.

Those convicted of heresy by the aforesaid Diocesan Bishop ,surrogate or inquisitors, shall be taken in shackles to the head of state or ruler or his special representative, instantly, or at least within five days, and the latter shall apply the regulations promulgated against such persons.

Law 25.

26. The head of state or ruler must force all the heretics whom he has in custody, provided he does so without killing them or breaking their arms or legs, as actual robbers and murderers of souls and thieves of the sacraments of God and Christian faith, to confess their errors and accuse other heretics whom they know, and
specify their motives, and those whom they have seduced, and those who have lodged them and defended them,as thieves and robbers of material goods are made to accuse their accomplices and confess the crimes they have committed.

Law 26.

27. And the house, in which a male or female heretic shall be discovered, shall be levelled with the ground, never to be rebuilt; unless it is the master of the house who shall have arranged the discovery of the heretics. And if the master of the house owns other houses in the same neighborhood, all of the other houses shall in like manner be destroyed, and the goods that shall be found in the house and the others related to it shall be dispersed to the populace, and shall belong to whoever carries them off, unless the removers shall be appointed by law. Above all, the master of the house, besides incurring eternal infamy, must pay the government or locality fifty pounds Imperial in coin; if unable to pay, he shall suffer life imprisonment. The borough where the heretics are arrested or discovered shall pay the government of the state a hundred pounds; and a manor shall pay fifty, and the regions adjoining manors and states, fifty.

Law 27.

28. Whoever shall be caught giving any male or female heretic counsel, help, or favor, besides the other punishments mentioned duly in their logical places in other passages of this decree, shall become infamous by that same law, and shall be admitted neither to public office, nor public affairs, nor the election of persons to these, nor may he testify in a legal process; to that extent shall his incapacity to testify go, that he shall neither
bequeath legacies to heirs nor inherit them himself. No one shall be compelled to respond to any business dealings initiated by him but he shall be so compelled by others. If he be by chance a judge, his sentence shall prove nothing, nor shall he hear any case. If he be an attorney, his defence in court will never be allowed to prevail. If he be a notary, the legal documents drawn up by him shall be utterly without validity. Those who give
ear to the false doctrines of heretics shall be punished like heretics.

Law 28.

29. The head of state or ruler must cause the names of all men rendered infamous by heresy, or under a statute of outlawry for it, to be written in a consistent form and manner in four books, of which one shall go to the state or local government, another to the Diocesan bishop, the third to the Dominican friars, and the fourth to the Franciscans, and the names of these persons are to be read aloud three times a year in a solemn public ceremony.

Law 29.

30. The head of state or ruler must carefully investigate the sons and grandsons of heretics and those who have lodged them, defended them, and given them aid, and in the future admit them to no public affairs or public office.

Law 30.

31. The head of state or ruler must send one of his aides, chosen by the Diocesan if there is one, with the aforesaid inquisitors obtained from the Apostolic See, as often as they shall wish, into the jurisdiction of the state and the district. This aide, as the aforesaid inquisitors shall have determined, will compel three men or more, reliable witnesses, or, if it seem good to them, the whole neighborhood, to testify to the aforesaid inquisitors if they have detected any heretics, or want to expose their motives, whether the heretics celebrate rites in secret gatherings, or scoff at the common life of the faithful, and their customs; or if the witnesses want to expose those the heretics have seduced, or their defenders, or those who lodge them, or those who give the heretics help. The head of state shall proceed against the accused according to the laws of the Emperor Frederick when he governed Padua.

Law 31.

32. The head of state or ruler must, within ten days after the accusation, complete the following tasks: the destruction of the houses, the imposition of the fines, the consigning and dividing-up of the valuables that have been found or seized, all of which have already been described in this decree. He must obtain all fines in coin within three months, and divide them up in the manner to be set forth hereafter, and convict of crime those who cannot pay, and hold them in prison until they can. However, he shall be subject to investigation for all and each
of these things, as it shall be described hereunder, and moreover he must designate one of the assistants, chosen by the Diocesan bishop or his surrogate and the aforesaid inquisitors, to carefully complete all these tasks; another assistant shall be substituted if they so decide.

Law 32.

33. None of these sentences or punishments imposed on account of heresy, shall, either by the motion of any public gathering, the advice of counselors, or any kind of popular outcry, or the innate humanity 10of those in authority, be in any way waived or pardoned.

Law 33.

34. The head of state or ruler must divide up all the property of the heretics that is seized or discovered by the aforesaid officials, and the fines exacted from these heretics, in the form and manner following: one-third shall go to the government of the state or district. The second as a reward of the industry of the office shall go to the officials who handled this particular case. The third shall be deposited in some secure place to be kept by the aforesaid Diocesan bishop and inquisitors, and spent as they shall think fit to promote the faith and extirpate 11heretics, this policy prevailing in spite of any statute that has been or shall be enacted against this dividing-up of the heretics' property.

Law 34.

35. If anyone tries to abolish, reduce or change any of these statutes, without particular authority from the Apostolic See, the head of state or ruler presiding at that time over the state or district, must, according to the prescribed form, render him infamous, as a public advocate and patron of heretics, and fine him fifty Imperials in coin, which if the head of state is unable to collect, he shall declare him an outlaw, a brand not to be removed till twice the sum is paid over.

Law 35.

36. The head of state, or ruler, during the first ten days of his term of office, by employing three faithful Catholic men, chosen for this purpose by the Diocesan bishop, if there is one, and the Dominican and Franciscan friars, must investigate the most recent occupant of his post, and the latter's aides, concerning everything that is written in these statutes or regulations and laws against heretics and their accomplices, and punish those who have overstepped the bounds of their authority for each and every particular they have neglected to perform, and compel the present government to restore the lost function; nor shall any departure from the regular procedure cause anyone in the government to be exempted from the investigation.

Law 36.

37. The aforesaid three men shall swear that they have acted in good faith in investigating the previous government concerning everything in these laws and regulations.

Law 37.

38. In addition, the head of state or ruler of any city or district must delete or erase completely whatever, in any statute or legal code, is found to contradict or hinder, in any way, these regulations, statutes, or laws; and in the beginning and the middle of his term of office, he shall cause these statutes, regulations, and laws to be solemnly read aloud in a public assembly; and even in places outside his jurisdiction or district, they shall be set forth if it seem good to the aforesaid Diocesan, or inquisitors and friars aforementioned.

Law 38.

39. Finally, all these statutes, regulations, and laws, and whatever shall be enacted at any time by the Apostolic See against heretics and their accomplices, must be written in a consistent format in four books, of which the first shall be deposited in the legal archives of the state, the second with the Diocesan bishop, the third with the Dominicans, the fourth with the Franciscans, all kept with the greatest care, that they may in no way be violated by forgers.

Given at Perusio, 15 May, in the ninth year of our pontificate.

抽刀斷水 發表於 2021/12/9 12:23

[quote]樓主只懂左搬右貼
不管尋根找底,
互聯網中的奴才
[size=2][color=#999999]beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/9 11:21[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147927&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]


    咁污糟既黑歷史,我實在唔多想睇咁多,你有興趣對主講者所說的作出反駁,麻煩拿出證明吧。

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/9 15:03

[quote]咁污糟既黑歷史,我實在唔多想睇咁多,
[size=2][color=#999999]抽刀斷水 發表於 2021/12/9 12:23[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147929&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]

即係你字照搬, 就是没有讀睇囉。 (太長無心機睇定係英文屎到髀?)
有問你搬來的38條laws,
有那條是說:
1可以使用酷刑來獲取口供
2二,可以採用火刑處死
3組織秘密警察,為宗教裁判所效力
4給討伐異端的人同遠徵聖地的十字軍騎士同等特權
5對信奉異端者的懲罰,可以延之後代

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/9 15:16

轉載覆述唔係唔得,
只係衰在成日加鹽加醋唶

抽刀斷水 發表於 2021/12/9 17:27

[quote]即係你字照搬, 就是没有讀睇囉。 (太長無心機睇定係英文屎到髀?)
有問你搬來的38條laws,
有那條 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/9 15:03[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147932&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]


    呢個只係英文譯本,並非拉丁文原文呀,你可否確定此譯本準確無誤?否則傾黎都嘥氣啦。

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/9 21:48

[i=s] 本帖最後由 beebeechan 於 2021/12/9 22:21 編輯 [/i]

[quote]呢個只係英文譯本,並非拉丁文原文呀,你可否確定此譯本準確無誤?否則傾黎都嘥氣啦。 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]抽刀斷水 發表於 2021/12/9 17:27[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147934&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]

仆咗街都話只係在挪砂......死不知錯!
唅住啖屎都話甘香好味

至少, 亞「答」說的:
1可以使用酷刑來獲取口供
2二,可以採用火刑處死
3組織秘密警察,為宗教裁判所效力
4給討伐異端的人同遠徵聖地的十字軍騎士同等特權
5對信奉異端者的懲罰,可以延之後代
都不是出自 Pope Innocent IV 的通諭

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/9 22:23

[quote]否則傾黎都嘥氣啦。 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]抽刀斷水 發表於 2021/12/9 17:27[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147934&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]

令你出咗醜既野, 你梗係唔想講落去哩

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/9 22:54

[i=s] 本帖最後由 beebeechan 於 2021/12/9 22:55 編輯 [/i]

[quote]
問:這個題目很重要,回顧這段歷史,人們才會意識到,人的精神自由不是輕易就有的。

答:對。人們為獲得這個自由,經歷過艱苦的鬥爭,對精神自由的壓制,曾經極為殘酷。當然,我用曾經這個詞,是指歐美文明國家所經歷的社會進步過程。其實在當今世界上,專制暴政對人的思想自由、言論自由的箝制,其殘酷的程度,不輸歐洲中世紀早期創立的宗教裁判所。不過他們現在是使用高科技的手段來審查言論,牽箝制思想自由的表達。所以,了解宗教裁判所的歷史,可以讓聽友們更清楚地認識當今世界的實際狀況,因為人是格外健忘的。首先,我們先看看異端這個詞最早的含義。[color=orange]研究宗教裁判所歷史的英國人愛德華·伯曼[/color]有一個定義,他認為,“異端的定義,可解釋為‘反對天主教會的天主教正統教條的一種神學觀點或教義’”。[/quote]


呢個亞「答」話佢既料係來自「研究宗教裁判所歷史的英國人愛德華·伯曼」 (Edward Burman)




我地睇睇呢個 edward Burman 乜料先....



[img]https://i.postimg.cc/cJRLg2Jm/Untitled.jpg[/img]

佢係無錯寫過唔少書, 不過, 涉及題材都好雜亂下, 唔見得佢係歷史專才。
只係一本書講下宗教裁判。。。。如果咁都叫係研究歷史專題學者....




嘿。。。。豈不是呢大叔都可以叫專科醫生??

[img]https://i.postimg.cc/GtsN9wL3/1870.jpg[/img]

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/9 22:56

亞「福」引「亞水」既九翕,
你, 樓主就當猛料, 想用嚟抽水??

抽刀斷水 發表於 2021/12/9 23:06

[quote]仆咗街都話只係在挪砂......死不知錯!
唅住啖屎都話甘香好味

至少, 亞「答」說的:
1可以使用酷刑來獲取 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/9 21:48[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147936&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]


    又係你話要睇原文先講得既:

[quote]這個「答」已經是典型的胡說八道,
「答」連《連根拔起》(ad exstirpanda)通諭的原文也未讀過, 馮京當馬 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/9 11:19[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147926&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]

咁你睇咗原文未呀?拉丁文喎。

問你英文譯本係咪準確,你又答都唔敢答?

都唔知邊個仆咗街鳥。

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/9 23:19

[img]https://i.postimg.cc/jj5qSX1g/Untitled.jpg[/img]
呢位「亞水」本書既銷路,
大家有目共睹哩...

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/9 23:20

[quote]又係你話要睇原文先講得既:



咁你睇咗原文未呀?拉丁文喎。

問你英文譯本係咪準確,你又答都唔 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]抽刀斷水 發表於 2021/12/9 23:06[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147940&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]

幾屎既翻譯, 都不會譯出你拎出嚟既「五大傻求」

leefeng 發表於 2021/12/10 01:44

[i=s] 本帖最後由 leefeng 於 2021/12/10 01:46 編輯 [/i]

[quote]第一節:  宗教裁判所的由來

「提要」人類精神自由的歷史,是一部充滿艱辛、困苦和血淚的歷史。今天享受着 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]抽刀斷水 發表於 2021/12/9 09:53[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147923&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]

[font=黑體][size=4]天主教基督教梵蒂岡等等邪教高喊中國冇宗教自由,睇下宗教裁判所的自由:[/size]
[size=4]
[/size]
[/font][p=30, 2, left][font=黑體][size=4][color=#3b3b3b]基[/color][color=#3b3b3b]督教/徒[/color]一天不做杀人犯就扮大善人?[/size][/font][/p][font=黑體]
[/font][p=30, 2, left][font=黑體][size=4][/size][/font][/p][font=黑體]
[color=#3b3b3b][size=4]宗教裁判所初论[/size][/color]
[color=#3b3b3b][size=4][url=http://www.pacilution.com/ShowArticle.asp?ArticleID=3757]http://www.pacilution.com/ShowArticle.asp?ArticleID=3757[/url]
[/size][/color][/font][size=4]
[/size]
[color=#3b3b3b][font="][size=4]早期宗教裁判所使用了六种主要的体刑方式:水刑、火煎刑、倒吊刑、车轮刑、拉肢刑和stivaletto。[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#3b3b3b][font="][size=4][107]水刑是强迫囚犯吞下大量水,有时使用滴管,有时把吸满水的丝绸塞进囚犯的喉咙,通常与其他体刑并用。当堵住囚犯鼻子不断向其口中滴水时很可能导致血管爆裂。火煎刑可以比作日常生活中在火上炙烤食物,是指囚犯被绑得动弹不得置于火前,然后脚上或者仅脚后跟涂满猪油或其他油脂,在大火前将油脂烧着——实际是煎烤——直至其招认。倒吊刑,被普遍认为是宗教裁判所最早的体刑形式,施刑时,囚犯无论男女皆剥光衣服,只穿贴身内衣,双踝套上脚镣,双手绑紧背后,然后将双手腕绑在另一根穿过挂在天花板上的滑轮的绳子。囚犯被吊起离地六英尺高,有时脚上还加上铁制重坠,就这样全身重量系在反绑背后的手腕上倒吊着。囚犯就是这样极不舒服地被吊着接受审问,如果还不能回答审判官的问题,还得受完全倒吊刑罚:身体进一步升高,直至天花板,然后突然放松绳子使其落下,但不着地。车轮刑从古代就开始使用,该刑罚中把囚犯绑在大车轮上,用锤子、棍棒敲打其身体直至打烂,宗教裁判所较少使用该刑罚。拉肢刑,中世纪宗教裁判所使用时是将地面架起一个木架,上面铺上类似梯子横档的木板,受害者手脚分别被绑在滚轮上,审判官连续向被告提问,被告身体被放在木架上,通过转动滚轮开始拉紧木架。Stivaletto是一种非常恶毒的夹板类刑罚:两条腿上缠着粗硬的绳子,再用石块厚板双腿各夹上两块板,能夹多紧就多紧。而后在两块板和腿之间插入木锲或金属锲,“一般”者四块,“严重”者八块,直到压力无法承受,粗绳开始嵌进受害者的皮肉。[/size][/font][/color][size=4][color=#3b3b3b]
[/color][/size]
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[/color][/size][font=宋体][size=4][color=#3b3b3b][/color][/size][/font][size=4]
宗教裁判所[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AE%97%E6%95%99%E8%A3%81%E5%88%A4%E6%89%80]https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AE%97%E6%95%99%E8%A3%81%E5%88%A4%E6%89%80[/url][/size]
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[/size]
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[/size]
[size=4].
    [/size]

leefeng 發表於 2021/12/10 02:10

[size=5]基督教的罪惡累累=原罪[/size]
[size=5]
[/size]
[size=4]無論教徒“beebeechan”怎樣辯駁,[/size]
[size=4]教徒“逃出魔幻紀”怎樣傳銷賣天主多麼慈善都永遠抹不去的「基督教就是原罪」![/size]
[size=4]
[/size]
[size=4]宗教裁判所,十字軍, 侵略,滅族,殺戮,性侵,性侵兒童,虐待,斂財,販賣青少年、兒童色情、剝削兒童…的罪不都是原罪的始作俑者:【原罪耶禍華】,再製造多一個【原罪耶穌】所造成的嗎?[/size]
[size=4]
[/size]
[size=4]世界上如果從來沒有基督教,根本不會有這許多悲劇的發生![/size]
[size=4]
[/size]
[size=4].[/size]

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/10 02:21

[quote]
天主教基督教梵蒂岡等等邪教高喊中國冇宗教自由,睇下宗教裁判所的自由:


基督教/徒一天不做杀人犯就扮大善人?




宗教裁判所初论
[url]http://www.pacilution.com/ShowArticle.asp?ArticleID=3757[/url]

[size=2][color=#999999]leefeng 發表於 2021/12/10 01:44[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147943&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]




我成日都話有「搬字賤工」只管把字搬搬貼貼, 根本不知自己貼了甚麼!

就以這篇為例:
宗教裁判所初论
[url]http://www.pacilution.com/ShowArticle.asp?ArticleID=3757[/url]


[img]https://i.postimg.cc/8pBV2qMV/Untitled.jpg[/img]
原文就係咁講既

條反基9本來想唱衰宗教裁判所,
點知, 貼出嚟既, 竟然係「撐」宗教裁判所既文章。

真係....條9, 蠢鈍到令人會笑到標尿

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/10 02:30

下次貼文時, 睇睇你要貼既係乜先哩。。。好無。。。?
唔好貼得咁白痴

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/10 02:39

咁很蠢,
無人同你做朋友架哩

leefeng 發表於 2021/12/10 02:47

[quote]我成日都話有「搬字賤工」只管把字搬搬貼貼, 根本不知自己貼了甚麼!

就以這篇為例:
宗教裁判所初论
...
[size=2][color=#999999]beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/10 02:21[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147947&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
[size=4]咁快就鬆毛鬆翼?鬆起你隻妖孽的狗毛做乜啫?[/size]
[size=4][font=Times New Roman][color=#3b3b3b]「[/color][/font][color=#3b3b3b][font=&quot]宗教裁判所[/font][/color][font=Times New Roman][color=#3b3b3b]」身冇屎又會有咁多人出来指責和揭穿[/color][/font][color=#3b3b3b][font=&quot]嗎[/font][/color][color=#3b3b3b][font=&quot]?[/font][/color][/size]
[size=4][font=Times New Roman][color=#3b3b3b]用下你隻基督教+中東鬼雜種妖孽個猪[/color][/font][color=#3b3b3b][font=&quot]腦[/font][/color][font=Times New Roman][color=#3b3b3b]思考下咧![/color][/font][/size]
[size=4]
[/size]
[size=4]
[/size]
[font=&quot][size=4][color=#3b3b3b]国外有关宗教裁判所的研究浩如烟海,其中大多数从客观的角度对宗教裁判所的历史进行了梳理和评价。1567年,原西班牙塞维利亚宗教裁判所的囚犯雷蒙德·冈萨雷斯·蒙特纳斯(Reginaldus Gonsalvius Monanus)用拉丁文在海德堡出版的《关于西班牙宗教裁判所各种活动的发现和宣言》一书是最早的关于宗教裁判所的著作。在一年之内,该书被翻译成荷兰语、英语、法语和德语。[8]直到19世纪初期西班牙宗教裁判所裁判员略伦特(Llorente)发表四卷本《西班牙宗教裁判所批判史》之前,没有一个人掌握着有关宗教裁判所的真实详尽的资料。[9]该书至今仍是研究西班牙宗教裁判所的基本史料之一。亨利·查尔斯·李也是宗教裁判所研究的开拓者,其作品《中世纪宗教裁判所》对宗教裁判所进行了详细的描述,[/color][color=#ff0000]但是他的结论依然是教会要对在镇压异端中使用的残酷手段负主要责任,[b]是教会引导甚至强迫世俗当局以死刑和其他刑罚清洗异端分子[/b]。[/color][color=#3b3b3b]最新、最有代表的、较为深入的研究是英国学者彼得斯(E.Peters)的《宗教裁判所》,[10]该书详细介绍了宗教裁判所在各主要国家的产生、发展、演变的历史和具体运作;基督教及中世纪社会经济状况如何影响其产生;宗教裁判所后期启蒙运动领袖对它的抨击,以及文学、艺术等领域对它的刻画。此外,还有不少研究宗教裁判所的重要文献。[11][/color][/size][/font]

[font=&quot][color=#3b3b3b]
[/color][/font]
[font=&quot][size=5][color=#3b3b3b]
[/color][/size][/font]
[size=5].[/size]

leefeng 發表於 2021/12/10 02:53

[i=s] 本帖最後由 leefeng 於 2021/12/10 04:26 編輯 [/i]

[quote]咁很蠢,
無人同你做朋友架哩
[size=2][color=#999999]beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/10 02:39[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147950&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote][size=4]
[/size]
[size=4]千其咪同基督教徒做朋友,分分鐘會被基督教徒出賣架![/size]


[size=5]宗教裁判所[/size][url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AE%97%E6%95%99%E8%A3%81%E5%88%A4%E6%89%80]https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AE%97%E6%95%99%E8%A3%81%E5%88%A4%E6%89%80[/url]

[p=30, 2, left]宗教裁判所的发展主要经历了这样三个阶段:[/p][list=1][*]中世纪宗教裁判所。[*][url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%A5%BF%E7%8F%AD%E7%89%99%E5%AE%97%E6%95%99%E8%A3%81%E5%88%A4%E6%89%80]西班牙宗教裁判所[/url],隶属于西班牙王室,1478年成立[*][b]宗教裁判所神圣办公室的法庭[/b](西班牙语:Tribunal del Santo Oficio de la Inquisición),常称作[b]西班牙宗教裁判所[/b](西班牙语:Inquisición española)。它是于1478年由[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%A5%BF%E7%8F%AD%E7%89%99]西班牙[/url][url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8D%A1%E6%96%AF%E6%8F%90%E7%88%BE]卡斯提尔[/url][url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BC%8A%E8%8E%8E%E8%B2%9D%E6%8B%89%E4%B8%80%E4%B8%96_(%E5%8D%A1%E6%96%AF%E6%8F%90%E7%88%BE)]伊莎贝拉女王[/url](Isabella I)及[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%98%BF%E6%8B%89%E8%B2%A2]阿拉贡[/url]的[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%96%90%E8%BF%AA%E5%8D%97%E4%BA%8C%E4%B8%96_(%E9%98%BF%E6%8B%89%E8%B4%A1)]斐迪南二世[/url]国王(Fernando II)要求[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%95%99%E5%AE%97]教宗[/url][url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%80%9D%E9%81%93%E5%9B%9B%E4%B8%96]思道四世[/url]准许成立的[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%95%B0%E7%AB%AF%E8%A3%81%E5%88%A4%E6%89%80]异端裁判所[/url]。用以维护[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%A9%E4%B8%BB%E6%95%99]天主教[/url]的正统性,直至19世纪初始取消。首任大法官为[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%89%98%E9%A9%AC%E6%96%AF%C2%B7%E5%BE%B7%C2%B7%E6%89%98%E5%B0%94%E5%85%8B%E9%A9%AC%E8%BE%BE]托马斯·德·托尔克马达[/url]。它与[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%E7%BD%97%E9%A9%AC%E5%AE%97%E6%95%99%E8%A3%81%E5%88%A4%E6%89%80&action=edit&redlink=1]罗马宗教裁判所[/url]和[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%E8%91%A1%E8%90%84%E7%89%99%E5%AE%97%E6%95%99%E8%A3%81%E5%88%A4%E6%89%80&action=edit&redlink=1]葡萄牙宗教裁判所[/url]一起,并称为天主教三大[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AE%97%E6%95%99%E8%A3%81%E5%88%A4%E6%89%80]宗教裁判所[/url]。西班牙宗教裁判所的覆盖范围很广泛,其职权可以在西班牙、[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8A%A0%E9%82%A3%E5%88%A9%E7%BE%A4%E5%B2%9B]加那利群岛[/url]、[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%82%A3%E4%B8%8D%E5%8B%92%E6%96%AF%E7%8E%8B%E5%9B%BD]那不勒斯王国[/url]以及所有西班牙殖民地和领地使用。[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%A5%BF%E7%8F%AD%E7%89%99%E5%AE%97%E6%95%99%E8%A3%81%E5%88%A4%E6%89%80#cite_note-Gibson-1][1][/url]根据现代估计,在西班牙宗教裁判所成立的三个世纪期间,[color=#ff0000]大约有15万人因各种罪行被起诉,其中有3,000至5,000人被处决(占所有案件的2.7%)。[/color][*][*][url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%9E%9C%E9%98%BF%E5%AE%97%E6%95%99%E8%A3%81%E5%88%A4%E6%89%80]果阿宗教裁判所[/url],隶属于葡萄牙天主教会,1560年成立。[*][p=30, 2, left][b]果阿宗教裁判所[/b],是[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%91%A1%E8%90%84%E7%89%99]葡萄牙[/url]天主教会在[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%91%A1%E5%B1%AC%E5%8D%B0%E5%BA%A6]葡属印度[/url]殖民地[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%9E%9C%E9%98%BF]果阿[/url]设置的宗教裁判所。[/p][p=30, 2, left]它成立于1560年,在1774年至1778年短暂地取缔,并最终于1812年废除。由1561年至在1774年临时取消期间,[color=#ff0000]有16202人在宗教裁判所受审[/color]。在这个数字中,已知有57人被判处死刑并执行;另外64幅肖像被烧毁,其他人受到较轻的惩罚或被命令忏悔,但也有许多人被审判后命运不明。[/p][p=30, 2, left]审判的对象是新天主教徒:刚从[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8D%B0%E5%BA%A6%E6%95%99]印度教[/url]、[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%8C%B6%E5%A4%AA%E6%95%99]犹太教[/url]和穆斯林改宗的天主教徒及其他基督教教派信徒。果阿的宗教裁判所将注意力集中在印度教徒和穆斯林,他们虽然已改教但被怀疑暗中保持原来信仰。[/p][p=30, 2, left]虽然它表面上的目的是为了维护信仰天主教,但也是[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%91%A1%E8%90%84%E7%89%99%E4%BA%BA]葡萄牙人[/url]控制当地社会一种方式,因其中一惩罚是没收财产。[/p][p=30, 2, left]大多数果阿宗教裁判所裁判记录在1812年裁判所被废除后销毁,因此不可能知道这些受审者的确切数目和他们被规定的处罚。[/p][*]罗马宗教裁判所,即今日圣座[url=https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BF%A1%E7%90%86%E9%83%A8]信理部[/url]前身,1542年成立。[/list]

leefeng 發表於 2021/12/10 03:08

[size=4]基督教是一班賊,每個時代都扭盡六任,[/size]
[size=4]巧立名目去斂財和滿足基督教徒的淫慾:[/size]
[size=4]例如去中國賣鴉片,狂掠中國人的錢![/size]
[size=4]
[/size]
[size=4]在中國搶土地開教堂,殺人姦淫,教案事件敗露又利用來引八國聯軍打中國![/size]
[size=4]
[/size]
[size=4]你估基督教唔想在中國開番幾間「宗教裁判所」咩?[/size]
[size=4]一旦基督教在中國得勢,教徒夠疊馬(徒多勢眾),[/size]
[size=4]到時佛道儒,甚至中國共產黨都被你們基督教的「宗教裁判所」審判囉![/size]
[size=4]
[/size]
[size=4]
[/size]
[size=4].[/size]

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/10 04:50

你瘋9依家猛咁潑墨抺黑都無用哩...

你貼嚟既文, 精粹既重點就係講出:

[quote]
長久以來,宗教裁判所被視為黑暗、愚昧、不寬容和思想禁錮的象徵。但近年來,隨著研究的深入,......報告的結論證明了宗教裁判所並不像人們想的那麼惡劣[/quote]

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/10 05:12

[quote]千其咪同基督教徒做朋友,分分鐘會被基督教徒出賣架!


宗教裁判所

宗教裁判所的发展主要经历了这样三 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]leefeng 發表於 2021/12/10 02:53[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147952&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]


呢條搬字奴真係無銀用,
成日都搬石砸自己腳....甩甩漏漏

又一例
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/LsypTdMj/Untitled.jpg[/img]

上邊就實牙實齒咁講有幾多人被審, 準到個位數字....
然後下邊又話: 哦..原來無哂記錄架哩...

(咁咪即係一味靠9翕....), 狗翕當秘笈

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/10 05:17

[quote]基督教是一班賊,每個時代都扭盡六[size=6]任[/size],
巧立名目去斂財和滿足基督教徒的淫慾:
例如去中國賣鴉片,狂掠中國 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]leefeng 發表於 2021/12/10 03:08[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147953&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]

唔知旁觀9 幾時又會彈撲出嚟, 講番句:
「死靚仔, 字都未識就學人反基..」

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/10 07:36

[i=s] 本帖最後由 beebeechan 於 2021/12/10 07:48 編輯 [/i]

[quote]
宗教裁判所神圣办公室的法庭(西班牙语:Tribunal del Santo Oficio de la Inquisición),常称作西班牙宗教裁判所(西班牙语:Inquisición española)。它是于1478年由西班牙卡斯提尔伊莎贝拉女王(Isabella I)及阿拉贡的斐迪南二世国王(Fernando II)要求教宗思道四世准许成立的异端裁判所。用以维护天主教的正统性,
[size=2][color=#999999]leefeng 發表於 2021/12/10 02:53[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147952&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]


   上邊 呢啲就係典型既半桶水屎料!
Spanish Inquisition 開始時, 的確是獲得教宗受命來成立,但之後的審裁官, 審裁委員都不是教庭的任命。
是西班牙皇任命委派, 法庭由西班牙政府出錢, 充公的財產也全歸入西班牙。
基本上, Spanish Inquisition 變了是西班政府用來打擊異見的機構, 羅馬教廷完全無控制權。


即係中國三自教會既醜事, 都歸到梵帝崗頭上???

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/10 08:04

[quote]千
虽然它表面上的目的是为了维护信仰天主教,但也是葡萄牙人控制当地社会一种方式,因其中一惩罚是没收财产。
[size=2][color=#999999]leefeng 發表於 2021/12/10 02:53[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147952&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]


    葡萄牙人當時全面統治果牙, 要向民間收地, 有需要屈一條罪(異端)才可以達到目的?
正如大陸建高鐵, 沿線要涉及不少收地, 但從來都没有聽過如香港般有居民會反對, 抗議, 拒遷既

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/10 08:33

[quote]
审判的对象是新天主教徒:刚从印度教、犹太教和穆斯林改宗的天主教徒及其他基督教教派信徒。果阿的宗教裁判所将注意力集中在印度教徒和穆斯林,他们虽然已改教但被怀疑暗中保持原来信仰。
[size=2][color=#999999]leefeng 發表於 2021/12/10 02:53[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147952&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]

又打個比喻,
正如有立法會議員宣誓咗效忠特區政府, 一國兩制
但背後又搞港獨, 勾結外國勢力, ...咁要唔要審一審?

唔通, 咁又係邪惡既事???

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/10 09:00

[i=s] 本帖最後由 beebeechan 於 2021/12/10 09:02 編輯 [/i]

[quote]基督教是一班賊,每個時代都扭盡六任,
巧立名目去斂財
[size=2][color=#999999]leefeng 發表於 2021/12/10 03:08[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147953&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]

[img]https://i.ibb.co/1LgRJgW/Screen-Shot-2021-12-09-at-7-54-20-PM.jpg[/img]

這是1890年在中國的傳教士,正是「教案」盛行的時間,
他們雖不至低下草根般衣衫襤褸,
亦不是穿金戴銀。

可見他們的「斂財」手段頗差勁,連個暴發土豪也不如
[img]https://img.ltn.com.tw/Upload/news/600/2018/12/06/phpoR4NkG.jpg[/img]

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/10 09:06

[quote]
「宗教裁判所」身冇屎又會有咁多人出来指責和揭穿嗎?
用下 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]leefeng 發表於 2021/12/10 02:47[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147951&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]

大紀元都成日「指責揭穿」大陸既醜事
咁大陸北京政府真係身有好多屎!?

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/10 09:15

[i=s] 本帖最後由 beebeechan 於 2021/12/10 09:24 編輯 [/i]

[quote]
国外有关宗教裁判所的研究浩如烟海,其中大多数从客观的角度对宗教裁判所的历史进行了梳理和评价
[size=2][color=#999999]leefeng 發表於 2021/12/10 02:47[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147951&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]


    咁你貼既呢篇野:
[img]https://i.ibb.co/n0Ckxw1/Screen-Shot-2021-12-09-at-8-12-08-PM.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i.postimg.cc/LsypTdMj/Untitled.jpg[/img]



一定唔係「客觀」勒。
咁你貼嚟。。。。托咩!

抽刀斷水 發表於 2021/12/10 09:22

[quote]幾屎既翻譯, 都不會譯出你拎出嚟既「五大傻求」
[size=2][color=#999999]beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/9 23:20[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147942&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]


    如果睇黎睇去都只係睇到唔能夠證實準確翻譯既原文譯本,而你又要堅持睇咗原文先可以發表意見的話,咁講黎有咩意思?

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/10 09:25

[quote]如果睇黎睇去都只係睇到唔能夠證實準確翻譯既原文譯本,而你又要堅持睇咗原文先可以發表意見的話, ...
[size=2][color=#999999]抽刀斷水 發表於 2021/12/10 09:22[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147964&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]


    你講嚟講去都係嗰句, 更加無意思
無新意見可以反駁, 不如收聲哩......

抽刀斷水 發表於 2021/12/10 09:34

[quote]你講嚟講去都係嗰句, 更加無意思
無新意見可以反駁, 不如收聲哩...... ...
[size=2][color=#999999]beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/10 09:25[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147965&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]


    仲以為你識拉丁文睇原文咁巴閉添,好啦我收聲啦。

beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/10 10:10

[quote]仲以為你識拉丁文睇原文咁巴閉添,好啦我收聲啦。
[size=2][color=#999999]抽刀斷水 發表於 2021/12/10 09:34[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147966&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]

咁中英聯合聲明, 英方楂住嗰份又唔係原文, 
中方楂住嗰份, 又唔係原文。。。。。??

你真係收聲好啲

抽刀斷水 發表於 2021/12/10 10:49

[quote]咁中英聯合聲明, 英方楂住嗰份又唔係原文, 
中方楂住嗰份, 又唔係原文。。。。。??

你真係收聲 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/10 10:10[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147967&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]


    講起合約條文既用不同語言就把幾火,《中法北京條約》內,傳教士私下添加對自己有利的條文,真係十分賤格。:curse:

中法北京條約
1860年10月(第二次鴉片戰爭[英法聯軍]後)

「第六款 應如道光二十六年正月二十五日上諭,即曉示天下黎民,任各處軍民人等傳習天主教、會合講道、建堂禮拜,且將濫行查拿者,予以應得處分。又將前謀害奉天主教者之時所充之天主堂、學堂、塋墳、田土、房廊等件應賠還,交法國駐紮京師之欽差大臣,轉交該處奉教之人[b] ,並任法國傳教士在各省租買田地,建造自便[/b]。」

(粗體句子為負責傳譯的法籍傳教士狄拉瑪 DeLamarre 私自添加,原文法文版本條約並無此句)

抽刀斷水 發表於 2021/12/10 10:52

[quote]咁中英聯合聲明, 英方楂住嗰份又唔係原文, 
中方楂住嗰份, 又唔係原文。。。。。??

你真係收聲 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]beebeechan 發表於 2021/12/10 10:10[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147967&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]


    係喎,聖經原文你睇哂未?:lol 如果唔識睇就唔講得架喇(根據你既理論)

leefeng 發表於 2021/12/10 11:58

[quote]講起合約條文既用不同語言就把幾火,《中法北京條約》內,傳教士私下添加對自己有利的條文,真係十分賤格。:curse: ...中法北京條約
1860年10月(第二次鴉片戰爭[英法聯軍]後)

「第六款 應如道光二十六年正月二十五日上諭,即曉示天下黎民,任各處軍民人等傳習天主教、會合講道、建堂禮拜,且將濫行查拿者,予以應得處分。又將前謀害奉天主教者之時所充之天主堂、學堂、塋墳、田土、房廊等件應賠還,交法國駐紮京師之欽差大臣,轉交該處奉教之人[b] ,並任法國傳教士在各省租買田地,建造自便[/b]。」

(粗體句子為負責傳譯的法籍傳教士狄拉瑪 DeLamarre 私自添加,原文法文版本條約並無此句)
[size=2][color=#999999]抽刀斷水 發表於 2021/12/10 10:49[/color] [url=https://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=147968&ptid=14434][img]https://exchristian.hk/forum/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]

[size=4]
[/size][size=4]基督教和黑暴曾經宣傳「官迫民反」來分化香港人?[/size]
[size=4]但「教迫民反」呢?更何況是有企圖的外教?條數點計先?[/size]
[size=4]中國和人民真是無時無刻都在被基督教陷害中![/size]

[size=4]傳教士在別人國家內蝦蝦霸霸,指手畫腳,把妖教堂建在別人家裡了?[/size]
[size=3]
[/size]
[size=3]二鴉後籤的中法條約,中文譯本多18個字,自此義和團的反抗不可免 [/size]
[size=3]
[/size]
[size=3]經過兩三篇文章的渲染,許多人還是不能理解我的核心論點:儘管義和團反抗的過程中造成了普遍的人道主義災難,但義和團的反抗絕對合理、絕對正義。[/size]
[size=3]
[/size]
[size=3]今天我們試圖來尋找一下義和團反抗的法理根源,其中我在《中法條約》的中文譯本中找到了這樣17個字:[/size]
[b][size=3]任法國傳教士在各省租買田地,建造自便。[/size][/b]
[size=3]
[/size]
[size=3]這17個字是災難的直接源頭,我們必須要共情的理解當時老百姓遇到的真實生存狀況的。[/size]


[url=https://www.sohu.com/a/418605277_552814][size=4]https://www.sohu.com/a/418605277_552814[/size][/url]

1860年,27歲的恭親王奕䜣和法國侵入者簽訂了喪權辱國的《中法北京條約》,作為第二次鴉片戰爭屈辱的結果。圓明園在侵略者和愚昧的北京市民的掠奪下毀滅一空,皇家尊嚴蕩盡,剩下大禍臨頭的就是老百姓。

在簽訂《中法北京條約》的時候,法帝國主義做了一個狡猾的改動。在中文譯本中,憑空的多出了這麼18個字:[b]任法國傳教士在各省租買田地,建造自便[/b]。這個喪權辱國的條約帶給中國的負面影響有很多,但光是這一點就可以視為義和團興起的直接原因。

藉由此,中國的土地上興起了一個新的人群,這就是被持有革命史觀的史學家稱為“神權地主”的新型地主。這些傳教士見基督教文化無法形成對中國文化的壓倒性優勢,就選擇通過利誘的方式招攬教民。

傳教士通過不平等條約授予的購地權利在地方圈地,按理說其實問題不大,自由買賣嗎。不過傳教士又通過司法上的優勢(治外法權、地方官對洋人的主觀偏袒等)肆意欺辱老百姓,強買強賣屢見不鮮。

然後他們把地以一個優惠的分成分給教民耕種,這些教民實際上就是新的佃農,他們對基督教教義並不純粹是主觀上信仰,而是有各種複雜的利益關係。而後,這些教民仗勢欺人,對當地的治安造成極大的破壞。

太長,請看網頁內容

[url=https://www.sohu.com/a/418605277_552814]https://www.sohu.com/a/418605277_552814[/url]






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