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標題: 錯誤的文明 [打印本頁]

作者: 潔瑩    時間: 2012/6/8 11:31     標題: 錯誤的文明

這是來自shoutbox的延伸討論,談及高污染工業這禍根是源自現代文明的生活模式,是事實,而造成這個事實,背後原來也大有文章。用我的理解,是貪婪和無知推動人類揮霍無度的生活方式。商人的貪婪和短視,消費者的奴性與被建制洗腦。

面對千瘡百孔的現世,我們對新世界秩序有何構想?
作者: wolfa    時間: 2012/6/8 14:00

回覆 1# 潔瑩


新世界的秩序啊…

之前和一個對政治比我熱衷的朋友談過

他說
其實依照現今地球的資源的數量來看
是夠全球人類使用的

唯一要做的就是妥善分配這些資源
而非讓少數人撐控這些資源~
以所謂的自由市場決定

而全球人類就不必去追求衣食住行的以外的欲望了
可能就定時讓人們去付出勞力可能四小時~其餘的時間都是自己的

可能有其道理~
畢竟很多東西都是和生存無關的~
只衣食住行下基本滿足的人~所謂更高的追求

如:車子~豪宅~股票~錢~

反正這些東西其實和大部分的人無緣的~
往往都是這些所謂的資本主義~自由市場~還有經濟
搞得大部分人的人心慌慌人心動搖~
大部分人也拿少部分人沒辨法~
作者: 匿名    時間: 2012/6/8 14:47

請參照  時代精神運動
上youtube搜尋即可
歡迎您一起來參與這個有以以來最偉大的運動
作者: wolfa    時間: 2012/6/8 14:55

回覆 3# Guest from 175.180.101.x


那個我有看過他宗教相關的部分@W@

真的還不錯@W@
作者: 潔瑩    時間: 2012/6/8 23:31

追尋了數年,我相信心中是有定案的。
不過若要籠統地將我對人類意識轉化的認知交待,恐又無從說起,又或不著邊際。

所以我立心開題,一點一點地分享、聆聽,慢慢聊,仔細感受,我相信這會是一個精彩豐富的題目。
作者: 潔瑩    時間: 2012/6/9 00:37

關心未來,源於關心下一代。一個沒有為孩子設想的頭腦,絕對不會對改善氣候環境的議題有興趣。

北美印第安人Iroquoian(伊洛魁族),他們一切生活決策都抱持一項準則,就是「承擔未來七代子孫的責任」。這真要成為我們自利短視的現代人的警示。沒錯,許多人選擇不生育,卻不代表世上就只有他們活著,而可以毫無道義地去肆意揮霍資源和破壞生存環境。別人的孩子(其實是大家的孩子),孩子的孩子,他們都有享受生命的權利,地球上的資源,是為眾生所用,絕非我們微不足道的區區一代人任意消耗殆盡。這是極度不道德的行為。
作者: 潔瑩    時間: 2012/6/9 01:15

有一件小事至今仍耿耿於懷。

某年讀一本談及中國自然生態危機的書,是鄭義的<中國之毀滅>。在友人言談間提及,她一口咬定那本是反共作家惡意抺黑中國的戰略文章,在她眼中,祖國前途無限美好,所見所聞皆是祖國先進發達的強勢表現。對於書中深入探討的環境隱患,她嗤之以鼻,冷淡地拋下一句:這個世界始終會有毀滅的一天的。
言下之意,令我的心起毛。

那年年紀尚輕,為世上有大量這些敗類而憤慨哀傷,即使時至今天,回想起仍仿佛心上有根小刺。
作者: dye    時間: 2012/6/11 13:06

沒有金融,人類仍要找方法去交易,去合作。
不用錢,是否以物易物? 以物易物是否做成更大浪費? 以物易物之下人如何分工?
沒有股票、債卷,如何集資建橋,建路?
如何決定建何橋、誰建、如何建?
你面前的電腦,在沒有錢的社會如何製造(因為當中是千人以上的合作成品)
當初為何大部份人也喜歡這制度?

衣食住行便好了?教育要不要?科研?娛樂?
單單生存?何謂「時間都是自己」的如果你什麼,真的什麼也沒有,只能呆坐?
我們今天普通的房,往往已是古代豪宅不能比。自來水,電,冬暖夏涼,颳風也不倒?

制度是有問題,但您會因為火災而不用火嗎?想想不用火的生活是否更好?
作者: dye    時間: 2012/6/11 14:14

承擔未來七代子孫的責任,說起來好聽極了。如何承擔?有能力承擔嗎?誰來承擔? 責任又包括哪些?

魔鬼就在細節中。

種田也是破壞環境啊。一平方米田如果用舊式方法種只能令一家人温飽,新式方法種卻能令十家人温飽,
如果有十家人,舊式方法種便要破壞十平方米田,新式方法種只要一平方,是誰短視了?到剩下一家人,舊式方法種便要破壞一平方米田,新式方法種只要十分一平方。黑心點看,人人用舊式方法種,生活成本上漲十家人人裏是誰先受害?不正正是弱勢的嗎?當你看見最樂見新式方法的正是最弱勢的,而最主張「環保」的往往是有點錢的中產,是巧合嗎?  這裏也不說土地之間有差別,集中辦事也更有效律,省下來的時間精力可以例如唱歌。(唱歌也是生產的一種!)

城中建路,千百萬人得方便。鄉村建路,能有多少人得方便?什麼路也不建,讓我們不合作,各自堵在自家中嗎? 城中當醫生,千百人得救治,鄉村當醫生,多少人得救治?但醫生訓練成本差不多,攤分不了成本,誰願當醫生?為何醫生多往城市跑?

維持現狀便是為子孫好嗎?更有效地辦事便不是為子孫好嗎? 子孫不要溫飽嗎? 子孫不要空間發揮嗎?

現代的人比以前的人差嗎?以前的人都在幹什麼?
作者: 潔瑩    時間: 2012/6/11 16:58

Dye,你的口氣,像要跟誰舌戰,怎麼人退步了那麼多。
作者: dye    時間: 2012/6/11 19:16

Did I begin the topic with "用我的理解,是貪婪和無知推動人類揮霍無度的生活方式。商人的貪婪和短視,消費者的奴性與被建制洗腦。"?

Or "人退步了那麼多"?

How do you suppose a businessman would think?  Take for example, if you have a plan that would generate $100 next year, or a plan that would generate $10 a year for the next 100 year (adjusted for inflation).  Which would be more valuable to an investor?  Is it incidental that professional investor are so keen on the development of future events?

Which will be a better practise for a businessman?  To trade unfairly and earn $100 for once and be outcasted till memory fail (which can be infinitely in electronic age), or to trade honestly and $10 for each year until the company is "dead" (which can be infinietely for a limited company).  Is it conincident that a typical businessman treat their reputation like a bird to their feather? (With care unless it plans to die.)

Which would be a better practise for a businessman?  To trade in a way that make your couterpart poorer and eventually unable to give anything to anyone, or to make them richer so that they can buy more our your "stuff" (which can be service such as singing, reseach, etc)  It is a fact that USA's prosperity for the last decade depends heavily on the rise of China.

Why is it that project in these recent century has such a long lifespan compare to the old projects?  For example, dams than last for hundreds of years, irrigation system require minimum maintenance?

-------------------
I am only asking, how exactly do your ideal world solve the "worldly" problem? For example
Who make what and how? (make include services)
Who get what and how?

I agree that the current system is not perfect, but the world is not perfect neither.  "貪婪和無知推動人類揮霍無度的生活方式。商人的貪婪和短視,消費者的奴性與被建制洗腦" or "businessman 'trying' to be mutually beneficial, consumer 'trying' to have a better life and future in an imperfect world"?
作者: dye    時間: 2012/6/11 20:36

Corporation is an interesting way to think of future.  

Human have limited life time.  If a project lasts longer than a person's life time, how does a person conduct the project after he is dead?  If a project is placed in a corporation, the project will continued with funding FOR the planned profit in future.  Project can pass from generation to generation, from strangers to strangers.  I believe, the modern corporation is the materialization of your concept “承擔未來七代子孫的責任”.  In fact, it does not stop at any generation, but foreseeable future at the time.  The concept is originally design to facilitate long and risky sailing trip that reaps profit only upon the ship’s return.

Condition change from time to time, planned event changes, a single human can be easily bias.  By incorporating, people can vote with money.  Do people believe the project have a good return in the future?  Is there more urgent matter for the present?  Is there new and better projects?  Incorporating allow these factors to be automatically considered into the planning.

(A major problem of incorporation is stewardship.  Management’s interest may not align with investors.  This is the case of Enron, this is the case of the bank’s meltdown, etc)

Future contract, hedges is an interesting way to think of trust.  

If I have a plan for the future, yet I am not sure of the exact result in the future, future contract and hedges will provide the trust I needed from my fellow humankind.  They ensure that even if the result turns out to be horrible, I will not suffer the horrible end for trying.  Stranger can trust each other without knowing each other.

(A major problem is the human nature to gamble with the future.  This tool can also be abused to gamble.)

Insurance is an interesting way to show out human solidarity.  

Whether bad fortune may fall onto anyone is an uncertainty.  By having an insurance, everyone insured is banded together to withstand this uncertainty.  The healthy insurer will pay for the sick insurer in a health insurance.  The living insurer will pay for the dead insurer in a life insurance.  The employed will be paying for the unemployed in an employment insurance.  People can be stranger yet show solidarity with insurance.

(The same problem with stewardship.  Another problem is known as moral hazard, that people intentionally taking more risk because of the insurance, just like an over-protected child.)
作者: wolfa    時間: 2012/6/12 14:29

本帖最後由 wolfa 於 2012/6/12 14:33 編輯

回覆 8# dye

你說得對
無政府主義和共產主義可行性到底是多少呢??


問題不是在於有沒有火災~才來決定要不要用火~

而是用火的方式要改變·W·a

制度也一樣~不是不要用
而是要改進·w·~
作者: dye    時間: 2012/6/12 16:11

The question is how?  The easy part is always to just say the system is imperfect, to blame it on greed, to blame it to some general "force of nature"

The more challenging part is point out in great detail where exactly the system is failing
Still more is creativity in providing feasible solution
Next is the wisedom in making the choice
Lastly the determination implementing

----------
So far, we have companies to think for future, insurance for solidarity, money for complex cooperation, soverign bonds for public cooporation, future contracts and hedges for uncertainty in life, the concept of "ownership" for sustainable development, rule of law to maintain a "minimum" level of justice, etc, etc.

We have indeed walk a long way from the past where we just and only talk.
作者: wolfa    時間: 2012/6/12 16:45

其實也不用想那麼多·W·a
做好個人的本份就好了·W·
不浪費~不做壞事就好了~
除非你很有決心改變世界~

在行動之前往往還是得先開口~

不然什麼叫人類XD
作者: 抽刀斷水    時間: 2012/6/12 19:50

幾乎人類所有的行為,都離不開思想帶動。

假如對現狀不滿,就是由於所謂的「人心不古」--要改變的,正是人心。

偉大的人,可以為世人作榜樣;沒那麼鴻圖大志者,可以先改變自己的心。

人類警醒,有反思的表現,而不像工蟻般被蟻后的化學劑愚弄操控一生。縱然現況可能暫時未能逆轉,但已有最重要的「希望」。
作者: 潔瑩    時間: 2012/6/16 08:12

作為一個城巿人,我們一生有好多需要,所以總認為錢是能越多越好。因為,除了解決目前的需要,還要未雨綢繆,積榖防饑。
怎樣才能以有限的時間獲取最多的金錢是個很令人困擾的問題。到底要不斷自我增值提昇競爭力,或減少休息娛樂的時間去兼職賺外快,或投資具有實力的項目(生意﹑企業股票﹑外幣﹑樓宇等)去作長短線回報,或鑽研有效的賭博工具圖以小博大,各式其式。當然,這個賺錢的遊戲,有人玩得高明些,懂得竅門,成為可以比其他人少花一些精力﹑本錢﹑時間的幸運兒。至於那些腦袋比較平凡,閱歷際遇比較平淡的人,就得付出兩倍﹑三倍以上的代價,才有機會達成他們的賺錢目標。
無論誰,只要認為錢是由生到死所必需,認同無錢是萬萬不能的道理,窮一生都要為賺錢的問題奮鬥﹑掙扎。




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