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[瘋狂行徑] 屯門馬可賓中學強迫學生去「方舟不是神話佈道大會」

First, one is still paying for those schools with tax money, in which Christians are overrepresented by their service by at least 5 times (some less than 10% of people are Christian in HK in total), with which if he so decides that he should go private school, that money is NOT refunded (unlike US)

Then again:

Of course there's no such exodus, because the parents has no choice at all (there simply aren't enough seats to move into - HK education system is SATURATED, look at that damn 43 people class at every high school in the urban area, and then a self-feeding ranking system ensures underfunded schools always gets underfunded), and they won't voice it, period. (oh in fact the students themselves who ARE the ones under the education, is conveniently out of the picture, again.)

No matter how that's distributed, how people "wants" to choose some 50% of people will end up there, no escape from that, period.

and that still neglects the funding/ranking attribution issue. And then of course, since the general public are only informed by a botched ranking, they never really would care.
回復 62# dye


The question is: escape to WHAT? Some underfunded, circulatorily underrated school? Or International schools? PLENTLY of parents learnt enough to push their kids to ISes on A HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS TUITION A YEAR, did the government do a jack shit to promote international school? No, thank you.


And then, as said:

No, you can't have a present without a past, but who lives on the past, using it as an excuse not to deal with things they don't want to, won't ever get to the future, because they dwell on it. What I have shown, is even that was a limitation of the past is shown in Basic Law, just like how Article 23 is effectively ignored, if the people ever has any piece of a bit of determination, that piece of freedom is FAR EASIER, than, for example, universal suffrage 2012.

And then again, a people who cares only about voting but not their constitutional rights has clearly been shown in history - it's called German Republic post WWI.

The reason why past exist, most of the time, is that we need to learn a lesson from it.


I would expect one would aware that if a HISTORY is an excuse for everything, then the HISTORY of democracy in Hong Kong definitely shows that HK people deserves nothing remotely close to a democracy. Yes, everywhere has a history and a culture, try not to abuse that argument, thank you.
>And the school is not divided between public and private in HK, period.



>>Of course there's no such exodus, because the parents has no choice at all (there simply aren't enough seats to move into - HK education system is SATURATED, look at that damn 43 people class at every high school in the urban area, and then a self-feeding ranking system ensures underfunded schools always gets underfunded), and they won't voice it, period. (oh in fact the students themselves who ARE the ones under the education, is conveniently out of the picture, again.)

No matter how that's distributed, how people "wants" to choose some 50% of people will end up there, no escape from that, period.

and that still neglects the funding/ranking attribution issue. And then of course, since the general public are only informed by a botched ranking, they never really would care.


Same shit, same reply.
>You can only change the present and future, but not the past.

And are people showing any effort to change it? no, period. same argument still applies.

>An escape is an escape from the Christian school with SIMILIAR quality education.  

and then a self-feeding ranking system ensures underfunded schools always gets underfunded), and they won't voice it, period. (oh in fact the students themselves who ARE the ones under the education, is conveniently out of the picture, again.)

One has to be quite dishonest to say that the education quality is SIMILAR, particularly when the schools on numbers, AND funding, are misrepresented by proportion.

FYI
Article 23:
>香港特別行政區應自行立法禁止任何叛國、分裂國家、煽動叛亂、顛覆中央人民政府及竊取國家機密的行為,禁止外國的政治性組織或團體在香港特別行政區進行政治活動,禁止香港特別行政區的政治性組織或團體與外國的政治性組織或團體建立聯繫 [1] [2]。

The Article ONLY SPECIFIES the government to MAKE THAT LAW, and that Law, up to this moment, is NOT legislated, it does not exist. For the article to be read word by word it is impossible for a person to be charged by article 23 alone as the article ONLY SPECIFIES THE LAW BE LEGISLATED, NOT THE LAW ITSELF, and as long as that a legislation out of Art.23 is not done, there's no legal charge to make on the basis of a law out of article 23, it's that simple. And will that EVER be brought to the table? not in forseeable future. (in fact, Art. 23 dont even have a date, how nice)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Basic_Law_Article_23

>The law was then shelved indefinitely.
回復 70# dye

>They do have a protest against the government reform the school system.  They are concern, just not in your particular narrow topic.


>>Which means they simply don't care about their own religious freedom, and what's a people who would freely submit that? Someone in one of those "Islamic Republic" maybe?


That, or you want to swallow your own words again?
本帖最後由 Nomad 於 2010/7/6 16:13 編輯

In English:

Article 23:
>The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall enact laws on its own ...

It is a law to specify the HK government to legislate that law, not a law directly on itself, if you can neither read the Chinese nor the English version of it,  that's your problem. In fact, if that law even exist, there'll be no need for the legislation, nor the debate around it.
By contrast,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macau_national_security_law

THIS, for example, is a case where that law exist.
回復 76# dye


Except in US they don't receive government funding out of the ranking - as schools in HK does, they receive funding out government funding out of this thing called the state budget. Without this part, one would NOT have a circular system to drive outside school into the bottom.
回復 76# dye


And no, I did NOT, say, for example, NO ONE, has the option, but only saying that option is very limited and the substition service provided is by no means similar. In the same argument, a heck lot of liberty impaired can be said liberty granted.
本帖最後由 Nomad 於 2010/7/6 16:24 編輯

回復 79# dye


Flat wrong: for a school that's government funded to begin with, like that in HK, its core funding (like teacher salary, therefore the ability to hire teacher with good qualification), comes from the government, which means the government decides how good they runs a school - by most part. Donations usually comes for facilities (mostly one-time construction), and is less critical than the ability to hire better teachers from the market, which in the case of HK, is pretty much all government money for most schools. Which is why in US cutting of state budget in education usually is a disaster, like now).

The argument would also make those "best publics" like the california ones which dominates the UCB entry, looks like miracles.
回復 80# dye


Oh except all you talk about is your little "quality" of education (which by history of what people protest about is mostly about exam grades or even more particularly, language grades, as much as news shows) freedom? no one sounds like they care.
回復 81# dye


From "HISTORY", before the handover, the British government had always been biased on Christian schools as Buddhists had always applied the same way, and not get fundings, then two problems are around as 1. older schools tends to climb higher up the rank as people know more about it and 2. there WAS a funding bias BACK THEN, and now that would not change because the ranking system drives previously underfunded schools to stay underfunded.

One has to see BS like this to appreciate this nice little thing called affirmative action.
回復 82# Nomad


On this, the VERY SAME SCHOOL I am sitting on right now is a government funded school that started when this piece of land has nothing but cows and land is cheap as dirt (compare to other cities, this piece of land still is.) and they started this crap because no one can affort education in this state - it is now the second strongest university in Plasma Physics.
回復 84# dye

    They change the administration to improve the quality, but NOT go around screw with funding basis on bad result coz, as shown in the case in HK, a reduction of funding due to current performance further declines the school.

And again, you missed the word: most schools are FUNDED, by the government. That makes a difference.
本帖最後由 Nomad 於 2010/7/6 16:38 編輯

回復 [url=redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=62677&ptid=5457]86#[/url] dye


Thedebate in US is usually something goes like in UCB, for example, that40% of the faculties are CHINESE, over representing the ethnicity'spopulation in the state by a heck lot and therefore they stoppedaffirmative action. The argument that the whole thing calledaffirmative action should not be started, has far less supporters thanthe former.

And then when a system was dominated by a singular group of people for a long enough time, one changes the system to fit their own performance to bar competition - it's never always a better performance that makes a firm survive - look at those oil companies.
回復  Nomad

So it shows with effort you can change the future!

But history has its restrain.  The ...
dye 發表於 2010/7/6 16:34



    Effort? Well, a person of the general public can ALWAYS, protest on the grounds that to force a student to attend a religious class of a certain religion and put arbitrary out-of-school time into a part of it is a violation of their religious freedom, on the grounds that a funded school is supposed to be a government property. Anyone put any effort anywhere close to that? what about tax incentives for private schools? No.
The affirmative action is a disgraceful law to begin with.  Are you saying that the minorities NEED  ...
dye 發表於 2010/7/6 16:40



    Still flat wrong.

A previously prestigious group hold higher economical power because of their they pocketed money from their previous power, therefore one needs subsdizary to the a previously un-prestigious group as their community lack the social and economical status for in-group support.
本帖最後由 Nomad 於 2010/7/7 01:04 編輯
The US constitution is kept being used in the debate like this.  What did the Constitution say?

The ...
dye 發表於 2010/7/6 23:08


To use the Zelman case to compare the HK funded system is like saying Nazi Germany is a democracy (Hitler is elected by a general public vote system, after all!)

Government voucher in the Ohio program goes DIRECTLY INTO THE INDIVIDUAL, that is, in the case of HK, even if the individual chooses to go to a private school, or even an IS, the same voucher pays for it (or at least an equivalent amount of aid given to students who go to funded schools/private schools which government would pay for bought seats) Notice that ISes costs are high mostly because the schools (and the individual) receives no aid whatsoever, the equivalent voucher or ceasation of the funded school system altogether will make ISes far more price competitive with funded schools.

In case you don't even know what's a school voucher:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_voucher

In HK, government funding directly goes to the SCHOOL, NOT the individual, no individual can go a random private school and use the government voucher.

The same deal goes to the school bus issue - the school bus service directly goes to the individual, and has no religious content, an individual can use the same school bus service to go any school, a same deal in HK would be government providing buses to EVERY SCHOOL including ISes, as long as they apply for it.
(reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everson_v._Board_of_Education
A New Jersey law authorized payment by local school boards of the costs of transportation to and from schools - including private schools.)

An honestly similar case in HK will be the Kurtzman case, in which government, instead of providing voucher to the INDIVIDUAL, directly pay for school teacher salaries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_v._Kurtzman

And while a Legislature can hire, a chaplain to give prayer, it has no right to force people into praying, which is contrary to the case of a funded school in HK.



---------------------------------
The merit system won't ever work in HK because the economical ecology is botched - this is a piece of land only needs accountants, businessman, lawyer and politicians, it has no place for an effective academia or an effective R&D (therefore no place for any long term development), and has no producing industry. It survives to this day purely because some national government decides that financial business will be done exclusively in this place, and heavily subsidize everything sold in this city, as though it's some charity.

And the Legco will never do their job to "safeguard" people's freedom on this, because the "beloved" democrats all got their support from the the education sector/church sector and they didn't even hide it in the days of the previous CE - the way the system is run is simply a disgraceful law since it allows the individual's freedom to be stepped on for some interest group's interest, and no one has to guts to speak up to that just because it's on "the right side" of the cold war, and therefore they found excuses and make remotely dis-similiar comparisons from other countries and pretend they were doing as much.

A democracy is possible only because a people in general recognize every right the individual, and that every right is ought to be protected, even if that individual is not himself. That's why people in US fight for Gay Rights when they are heterosexual, and rule out direct government aid to religious schools (as in paying the school, not the individual) when they are Christians. Nazi Germany ends up Nazi Germany because people cares only about their votes prevailing and not a jack about the individual rights. In the end of the day, that's why Hong Kong people never stand up against it, and make up excuses to pretend there's no such a problem - because they don't want to face what they are, and where they are heading.
本帖最後由 Nomad 於 2010/7/7 01:51 編輯

On the cost competition side:
This is an example of a school expenditure 2009:
http://www.cneccc.edu.hk/pop_up/ ... 09_P6night/q&a2.pdf
The government has spent 35,255,809 HKD for a school (p15) with 1239 enrollments (p.5), the equivalent aid given as voucher to a student directly, would be 28455, which is would be surplus for the cheapest international school, and drives the fees of the most expensive schools down by some 25%

On a so-called "pay more for better service argument", this would help:
http://paper.wenweipo.com/2006/05/30/OT0605300009.htm
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