Paul_Bard

1. "三千年前... "

a. 神應許了那地作以色列之地
出埃及記 6:4 我與他們堅定所立的約，要把他們寄居的迦南地賜給他們。
出埃及記 33:1 耶和華吩咐摩西說：“我曾起誓應許亞伯拉罕、以撒、雅各說：‘要將迦南地賜給你的後裔。
創世記 49:30 就是在迦南地幔利前、麥比拉田間的洞；那洞和田是亞伯拉罕向赫人以弗崙買來為業，作墳地的。

b. 這是神親自說要行的事
出埃及記 23:23 我的使者要在你前面行，領你到亞摩利人、赫人、比利洗人、迦南人、希未人、耶布斯人那裡去，我必將他們剪除。
出埃及記 23:28 我要打發黃蜂飛在你前面，把希未人、迦南人、赫人攆出去。
出埃及記 33:2 我要差遣使者在你前面，攆出迦南人、亞摩利人、赫人、比利洗人、希未人、耶布斯人，

c. 迦南地的人行惡
利未記 18:3 你們從前住的埃及地，那裡人的行為，你們不可效法，我要領你們到的迦南地，那裡人的行為，也不可效法，也不可照他們的惡俗行。

d. 在旨意裡有恩典, 各族沒有被滅
約書亞記 16:10 他們沒有趕出住基色的迦南人；迦南人卻住在以法蓮人中間，成為做苦工的僕人，直到今日。
約書亞記 17:12 只是瑪拿西子孫不能趕出這些城的居民，迦南人偏要住在那地。
約書亞記 17:13 及至以色列人強盛了，就使迦南人做苦工，沒有把他們全然趕出。
士師記 1:21 便雅憫人沒有趕出住耶路撒冷的耶布斯人，耶布斯人仍在耶路撒冷與便雅憫人同住，直到今日。
士師記 3:1 耶和華留下這幾族，為要試驗那不曾知道與迦南爭戰之事的以色列人，

2. "還有... 做法的質懷是「眾道德」"
雖然, 似乎討論結果也是一樣, 不過我也再說一遍 :

究竟是跟從神的旨意, 還是人的旨意?

這似乎就是答案

[ 本帖最後由 Paul_Bard 於 2008-2-21 13:06 編輯 ]

沙文

呢啲過橋抽板就係人都係咁
復國後啲一賜樂業人又係咁樣對付佢地，好在唔駛殺頭之嘛：

傳揚呢碌教 美牧師夫婦被下令離開以色列
【中央社╱特拉維夫十七日專電】

2007.08.17 06:00 pm

在以色列工作居住約十八年的美國呢碌教新教牧師甘翠爾夫婦，由於永久居留簽證申請遭以色列內政部駁回，被下令於兩週內離境，他們未能獲得批准居留的原因是涉嫌在以色列傳揚呢碌教教義。
「耶路撒冷郵報」報導，五十九歲的甘翠爾和他五十四歲的妻子卡蘿這四年來主持一個小的耶路撒冷平安教會，而之前的十四年他為一個福音機構和平橋樑工作，他們的兒女已與以色列人結婚擁有本地的身份證。
以色列內政部表示，拒絕甘翠爾夫婦居留權申請的原因是他們涉嫌在以色列傳揚呢碌教教義，並勸以色列人改信呢碌教，但甘翠爾否認這種說法。
根據以色列國成立的宗旨，以色列是一個猶太人組成的國家，他的人民應該是猶太人的後裔並信仰猶太教。依以色列法律，若有人傳揚其它教義給十八歲以下的猶太人，是犯法的行為。
以色列歡迎呢碌徒與天主教徒入境觀光朝聖，但不歡迎他們在此傳教，更不接受他們的居留申請。

【2007/08/17 中央社】

Nomad

>1. 當時基督教係國教, 大部份人都係"名義"的教徒~

原來這世界有那麼多無聊的人會把自己的性命像雜草一樣丟出去用來殺人。
他們還真可憐哪 - 當年就是超越眾道德的英雄
棋子用完之後就變成了名義的教徒。

此外,不如說清楚一點吧
當年人人都是基督徒,是因為你在一條村子裡公開當無神論者是被村民斬死的。
(其實現在美國一些教會勢力大的州省也有此危機)

還有
三千年前大條道理的殺人放火還要一邊說其他人對這做法的質懷是「眾道德」
三千年後的人照辦煮碗做一次就叫罪性(而且,這些評價永遠只會出現在這些人死了之後,而教會是永遠不會對死者作出無政治條件的補償的...實際上,比日本帝國還要差勁。)

你還是先公佈一下今天殺人股行程再說吧。

沙文

M2現正接受內部調查，其教徒資格已被小妹妹suspended，在佢declare幾時咁信聖經及由小妹妹覆核證實之前不能以教徒身份發言，您同小妹妹溝通住先啦

Paul_Bard

當然, 那時的人背起基督徒的名犯罪是不爭的事實, 不過有幾點可以進一步思考 :

1. 當時基督教係國教, 大部份人都係"名義"的教徒~
2. 人有罪性, 如果沒有打從思想以致行為改變自己, 學習神的樣式的話, 只是入了教會(或當時的全民皆基督徒)根本就是基督徒名份和實際有出入(奧古斯丁有云, 教會乃義人和罪人攙雜的團體)

[ 本帖最後由 Paul_Bard 於 2008-2-21 11:38 編輯 ]

Paul_Bard

To 小妹 : M2和我是這裡少數基督徒~

To M2 : 很少這麼齊人, 來揍揍熱鬧先~

prussianz

原帖由 小妹 於 2008-2-19 23:00 發表
oops...遺漏了, 對不起.
不過請問一句: 幻想中這3個字為何如此重要?

1. 有人於獨立思考/批判思考等方面天真及傻.
2. fear of punishment after death, and the reward after-life
3. 人的奴性以及依賴性萬年不變
4. ...

My Fair Lady 小妹  ,

more truth o' Bible , please see
http://truthbible.net/
`````令人戰慄的聖經''''
cheers ThANKye bestrespects

prussianz

原帖由 M2 於 2008-2-20 11:52 發表
如果果節經文太難解，可以睇以下呢節：太 22:14 因為被召的人多，選上的人少。
我認為根本唔應該用世上有幾多信徒來看基督教的成敗，而根據聖經所講，信徒亦點都唔會成為大多數。

信仰是個人的決擇，唔受地域網域限制。所以"呢 ...

sorry 'm confused , 'r u Christian , My Dear Sir M2 ? cheers ThANKye

dye

Biological evolution suggest that organism will evolve according to enviromental pressure.

So population will neither evolve will be better or worst.  It will just evolve to be "fitter".  It is a misconception Creationist brought into evolution.  The fact is that there is no direction for evolution.

So, if the world is in a way such that stupid people are better fitted to survive, people will evolve to be more stupid.  

On a sad notes, we know as a fact that poorer and less educated people tend to have more children.  From UN charter of rights, these same people has a important control over the education the children is going to get.  So.. um.. we already have an environment that is favorable to stupidity.  (Up til the rich and educated bunch decided to 'help', like project Hope, like Oxfam...)

If anyone is interested in "changing the environment"  see below, the "campaign for education"

http://www.campaignforeducation.org/news/news_full.html#verdict

-----------
Wait wait, the same trait that makes religion, is also the trait that makes learning possible.  I am not sure if we really want these "roots" eliminated (even if we are capable).

Just as, removing sex altogather is a horrible way to eliminate STDs...

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-2-20 14:48 編輯 ]

weakest

"To weskest,

Eliminating these by-products is unlikely.  How do parents pass information to their children noise-free?  Sounds impossible to me.

BUT when there is a will, there is a way."

Thanks a lot. By the way, I am curious that if this faculty of "learning" by accepting everything taught of human beings would be elminated by evolution? (as believing in religions could be a by-product of this faculty of learning, would elminating this faculty greatly reduce the number of believers, and thus reduce the number of wars, and thus make human beings more likely to be able to live longer?)

By the way, I have a question about evolution theory. Would this suggests that all beings will be "improved" (by evolution in the sense that the more superior beings would be more and more...) to more and more "high-class" things? Or is it possible for beings to exhibit some circular trend (e.g. from A--->B---->C----->A again)? Sorry for my ignorance in this science matter...

M2

如果果節經文太難解，可以睇以下呢節：太 22:14 因為被召的人多，選上的人少。
我認為根本唔應該用世上有幾多信徒來看基督教的成敗，而根據聖經所講，信徒亦點都唔會成為大多數。

信仰是個人的決擇，唔受地域網域限制。所以"呢度"可以有人當聖經係流，亦可以有人當聖經係堅。教會裡面亦一樣可以有人當聖經係流。

粗略來說，小弟開始信聖經已經係上一個世紀既事。

dye

For those interested, please see

http://www.channel4.com/culture/ ... tes/rootofevil.html

The root of all evils - part 2

---------------
The question is, atheist has been procecuted for such a long time (probably since the beginning of history and is still discriminated today).  How is it that it is growing so rapidly today (especially among the intellectual)?

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-2-20 11:19 編輯 ]

抽刀斷水

小妹是否準備把我們的意見交給牧師審理？

好多謝您，希望您能成為我們與基督教之間的有效溝通平台。

dye

The idea here is that children are born in such a way that they have a high tendency to copy whatever believe told by the society.  It is a trait evolved over a million years.

When the children grow up, it is very difficult to change these underlying belief even if they do think about it.  Again, it is evolved.

We have
a)Church actively controling the education system by using the government/kidnapping kids/luring with goods

b)We have kids copying all these belief into their hardwired belief at an early age when they are not ready to think

The result is predictable.  Be it Christian or Muslim.  The only question is who is better at doing it.  Evolution would sugggest a few point will be very important.

1) Have variety in the pool of belief so that it can evolve.  (How many sect are there in Christianity (over a hundred)?  Muslim (2-3)? Bushism (under 10)?  Hinduism (Millions)?

2) The fidelity of the copying process.  For muslim, it is perfect as they have to memorize the whole thing and repeat it every day.  For Catholic, it is similiar but weaker.

...etc
----------------
To weskest,

Eliminating these by-products is unlikely.  How do parents pass information to their children noise-free?  Sounds impossible to me.

BUT when there is a will, there is a way.

prussianz

原帖由 小妹 於 2008-2-19 12:40 發表
抽刀, 請不必擔心. 小妹並非那些容易受傷的脆弱小女生. 不過都謝謝你啦!

版規寫得很清楚: 言論自由, 尊重他人.  
這裡有些人是很樂意坦誠討論的.
一個理性的人, 應該懂得控制自己的情緒, 別要感情用事, 被蒙蔽看不 ...

感情 , i'd like2suggest my sincere 感情 2thee for thy kind personnal list consideration ,

cheers ThANK ye My Fair Lady

!!!!!!!!!
note the wet blanket : :::::
nothing but only junks4fun ,

[ 本帖最後由 prussianz 於 2008-2-20 14:24 編輯 ]

prussianz

原帖由 Guest from 221.125.57.x 於 2008-2-19 18:03 發表
I think Richard Dawkins has it best.

When an old man/woman talk to a child in a serious tone about something, evolution will have the child memorize it regardless of what it really is.  It is an evol ...

hi
high welcome2Dye !

7. It is a by-product of evolution.  A misfiring, just like people whomasterbrate when nature is really interested in reproduction. (orpeople who are on opium, when the evolution of the pleasure system isintended for something totally different - like feed yourself!)

sorry not quite get it ,

d'u mean the Christiannity = a misfiring , just like
````` people whomasterbrate ''''' ......... ````` orpeople who are on opium '''' ????

should 'the answer b positive , then , 100.000% me agree !!

prussianz

原帖由 Guest from 118.100.106.x 於 2008-2-19 20:58 發表
基督教屹立兩千年來至今一大原因係因為 “ 殺戮別人、殺戮別教 ‘

為何基督徒到現在都不願承認 呢﹖

被殺的人真係咁賤 ﹖連豬狗都不如 ﹖﹖

要基督徒承認錯誤真係咁難 ﹖

基督徒 ﹐你有良知的嗎 ﹖ ...

o yes ,

e.g. : ::::: live burning of witches , regardless of any perspective , must b 100.000.000% wrong ,
expecially so true construed by todays laws ,

too many many similar examples to quote here

沙文

原帖由 prussianz 於 2008-2-19 12:31 發表


sorry , there'r just too many posts under that thread , + , i have so limitted time, ..........

so ,
couldest thou do a little bit of summary of 'the 2條 ??

cheers ThANKye

As you wish
http://exchristian.hk/forum/redirect.php?tid=1476&goto=lastpost#lastpost

prussianz

原帖由 小妹 於 2008-2-18 23:45 發表


據現在常用分類:  Protestant. but i'd rather call myself a Christian. To me, what branch a Christian belongs to doesn't really matter. The core value of their faith is what I look at. Maybe will elab ...

ThANKye again ,

>>>>>>>>> The core value of their faith is what I look at
i'd like2suggestye2 .... also take a look of the core's value of other believes[[[[[beliefs]]]] ,
e.g. : ::::: confucian , 道教﹐佛教﹐回教﹐印度教 , jainism , e.t.c.
expecially those of chinese ,
which , up2now ,
[[[[[[[[[ although there'r certainly some religious quarrels ]]]]]]]]]
do not cause any inter-religion wars nor any intra-religion wars as those in 'the West ,

history , the best witness [[[[[[[[[ over 2000 years of history here ]]]]]]]]]

v'r so lucky of them
i'm so proud of them

prussianz

原帖由 小妹 於 2008-2-18 23:45 發表


據現在常用分類:  Protestant. but i'd rather call myself a Christian. To me, what branch a Christian belongs to doesn't really matter. The core value of their faith is what I look at. Maybe will elab ...

>>>> btw...你在外地嗎? 若然在香港, 4點幾都唔訓....好傷身的.

ThANKye ,

o yes , sometimes 在外地 ,

but ,
but also .........

[ 本帖最後由 prussianz 於 2008-2-20 07:19 編輯 ]