dye

Above is me

dye

Really?

According to BBC,

"2008年3月10日，拉萨藏人集会纪念1959年抗议中国统治失败事件，随后数日继续发生大规模抗议活动。后来骚乱出现，引起各方关注。 "

什麼"很多都說西藏被血腥鎮壓了"??

There seems to be no detail report from CBC about it.  All too typical of Canadian.

Nation Post (Canada's right wing newspaper) said most Canadian oppose to a boycott on the Olympic over it.

"Rioting erupted in a province neighbouring Tibet yesterday, two days after violent protests by Tibetans against Chinese rule in Lhasa in which the region's exiled representatives said 80 people had been killed."

-----------------
In terms of actual action:

German and US are both asking (politely?) for China to open up for an observer so that they can know what is going on.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-3-25 10:26 編輯 ]

dye

I said I will be busy for a while.

In fact I have been traveling around in Mainland a lot lately.

dye

The passage is directly from BBC, Chinese division.

在google查「西藏血腥」，都有很多, but internet is not representative of the populace.

Udn is a company from Mainland.  The Chinese government WANTS its populace to have paranoia (my personal opinion)

-----------------

Image from BBC on the troops



Fellow from Mainland probably do not see it.  However, it is about a child "welcoming" the army.  THIS, is how ouside see China.  
Is that how you would describe a massacre?

----------------------
It can be demonstrated again and again.  To keep in-group solidarity, it is best to tell people that the out-group hate us.  It has been the underlying causes of hatred and war.

US government like to tell their citizen that Chinese hate them.  Chinese did exactly the same.  Fortunately, US has free press.  The people I met from US takes CNN with a grain of salt.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-3-25 12:42 編輯 ]

dye

1) What kind of government would let its civilian to be burnt alive just so that it can "punish" dissendents?  Imcompetence?  Or down right evil?

Is that not thinking too low of Communist China?

Least you do not realize, suppressing a riot is not a crime in international community.   A peaceful demonstration is vastly different from a riot.  I rather prefer to belive that they are unprepared for the event (intelligence failure).

2) Having a riot is one sign of incompetence.  Not able to control is second.  Unable to protect independent observer is third.  Do we need a fourth?

International community will understand if the obersers get killed by the rioter if reasonable measure is taken by the host.  Being a reporter in a riot has risk, they sign up for it.  If they do not want the risk, they can always quit by themselves. (Are they going to ban bungee jump too because it is risky?)

Interesting thing is, the exile of the observer is immediately follow by tighter censorship about the topic in China.  If you have not leave China so far, you can only see what they want you to see...

3) If Taiwan gain independence (which it already has de facto), China would fight a war.  Where is the talk about brotherhood of the same nation?  You kill your brother for his independence?  If you are a Taiwanese, would you be as cool when they kill your family?  What happen to the Golden Rule of the once great Chinese culture?

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-3-26 00:12 編輯 ]

dye

1) Scale matters.  If there is not too many fellow in a riot, riot police will work.  Containing the rioter will help.

Considering the potential rioter in HK when WTO have their meeting here.  It is about training, equipment, persuation skills and morale.

According to witness from BBC, Chinese governemnt also stop part of the rioter from reaching the scene by having undercover cops reporting and sending riot police before fellow rioter can get too far from the monastary.

2) But they are always trying to stop the riot in soccer games from starting.  Eurpean are not perfect.  Riot does occur nonetheless

3) The difference is censorshiip as a national policy, and censorship as a mob policy.  Even no one report to to the police, but if you do, it will be a murder case in US.  Where as in China, there is no case.  Richard Dawkins and el. do not get shot in the south anyway.  

4) People working from behind always has a better time catching up.  They see our mistakes in advance.   

5) For Iraq, occupation and invasion is 2 different choices.  If US invade and leave, Iraq will be in chaos.  Saddam is not an average depotist anyway.  The key here is if the citizen believe it is a wrong decision?  The tide is  turning just nowadays.  If US citizen want him down, the oppuntunity is there (Talk to your local representative if you wish a fast track).

If Chinese wants to bring Wen down because they think he did something stupid, how much of a participation do they have? (With no bloodshed)

6) Oh, Canada is a Christian country by Constitution.  (Following UK's lead, Anglican Church)  By ideal, Canada is nominally Christian.  In function, Canada is some-what secular.

7) There are Chinese MP in Canada.  Woman PM in history.  We have a Chinese governor to represent the Queen before.  It is a fair game.  Chinese is a minority, ofcourse it will be a minority in the government.  (Even with full participation, the PM of China will still be a Chinese simply because the majority is Chinese.)

---------------
FYI

Riot control - How it can be done

http://people.howstuffworks.com/riot-control.htm

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-3-26 10:20 編輯 ]

dye

Well?  Any independent source of what is going on in Tibet?

This is all too typical of Chinese media.  Do you really think they did that intentionally?  (The "West" is not a single bloc.  It has a diversity of opinion.  The media also represent that.)

Here is another photo from CNN


Are they really trying to protray the protester as "peaceful"?

dye

Hardly.  

XinHua is Chinese version of CNN.  The only difference is that Chinese government probably have more control over Xin Hua than US has on CNN.

Comparing the actual bbc link with image.  I do not know if they update it quickly or what.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7300312.stm

But look at the passage in context and see.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-3-26 11:46 編輯 ]

dye

According to the "free" media only SOME are allowed to visit.  SOME that are hand-picked by the government.

<- back to Mainland now.  For last week, I see quite a few police/army (shopping in Macdonald, KFC, or Xin Ke Long just like how the police are in sitting Donut shops and coffee shop in Canada.)

Guangzhou is so peaceful.

dye

As far as I have read it is true.  These girls are dead.

   Death is part of living.  They are only going back to where they begin.

Lets hope that the Chinese government is successful in its crackdown and capture those responsible for the act.

dye

There are many country that have walk through this road.  Many have succeeded.  China is not the only one.  Communist party have not done particularly well.

Do not forget, China has a lot of natural resources to begin with.  We have coal, we have a lot of irrigated land.  We have woods and we have rivers.  We have roads (even though they are primitive), we have boats, we have a lot of house and buildings.  On the "soft" treasure, we have antique, we have culture, we have Chinese medicine.  My great grandfather for example, has the Chinese skill of "story-telling". Something Westerner do not have.

In the world arena, China has Japanese left over factory and tech.  There is a bit of weapon left over by the Japanese too.  We have Russia (and its bloc) as friends and technical support.  India is initially friendly and serve as a bridge to the other side of the world.  The world is busy after WWII in reconstruction, no one has much of a will to fight anyone.  Japanese has give China a huge sum of charity after WWII (You can also say it is like compensation).  The world economy is recovering from hell before WWII.  China has a VETO in UN.

Do you have cold weather like Canada?  Tundra covering most of your country like Canada?  Do you have a threatening neigbour like US that can conquer your country with little to no strength?  A diverisfied population like Canada with people across the globe (Palestianian, and Jews living side by side?  Greek and Turk living as classmates?  Both fractions of Irish community sitting side by side?)?  A country so depopulated, that it takes hours of traveling to go from one cities to another?

You have to realize most countries do not have that many people.  Having less population create other problems as dire as over-population.  Human power is an assets in and of itself.  With human power, things can get done.  People can make their fortune.  With no human power, nothing gets done and everyone has to live with whatever they start with.

-------------------------------------------------
In Canada, we speak of nationism as a way to create war.  We speak usually of "regionalism".  When a person speak of a home, they usually refer to wherer they live.  A very small place in a very large country.  For example, when I speak of Canada, I refer to central Canada, but not Canada in the artic.  For all I know, I have visit only a very very small part of the country (I have visited all the central and eastern province of Canada, which is about half of the size of China).  I wonder how much of China have you visited?

Only when a person is mongering war do they speak of nationism.  The time when people speak of protecting "my country" against "your country" is also time when our home (a very small place) is never in conflict with each other.  

Take the "Fishing Island" China fight with Japan for example, Chinese keep speaking of protecting their "home  country" but how much will it hurt them if they let go of the island when it is not populated at all?  How much would YOUR home gain from trading peacefully with Japan if we sit and coolly discuss the issue?  Most of time, I see them protecting a ideology (nationalism), just like the US citizen.  

Sorry, if I need to "remember" who I am, I am only partially Han, and hence partially Chinese.  My blood has a country long lost in history, conquered by Chinese as "barbarian".

Have you realize that the current prosperity occur after communist somewhat let go of their control over the economy (under Tang's command)?  Do you realize that people have and will feed themselves if you leave them alone?  Do you think China has always been in a famine before the communist?  Have you heard that a China feast for a feudal lord during Ch'ing is better than a pricess wedding feast for a European country?

If you wish a comparison in the mordern period, a typical one is India.  There are the truely have-not.  But, it also manage to feed itselves no matter which parties takes over, no?  Is there major famine over there like in China? (Even after China defeated them in battle?  Pakistan seperates and threaten them with nuke under support of China?)

------------------------------------
But they do block people from seeing outside.   
a) Getting a VISA is not easy in China.  I have been with the diplomatic group sent out by Chinese government before.  These fellow are so happy to get a passport.

b) The media is censor (looking at TVB from China prove the point)

When they do let you see the world, they block the part they do not wish people to see.  (Watching TVB again, will prove the point)

Just like religion, brainwashing started out in childhood.  My kind of wash is in HK.

----------------
There is an agree upon meaning for Human Rights.  It just do not get re-define everytime in different countries in which ever way they want.  It is stated in UN.  

However, Chinese can certainly disagree that people should have them.  (It is perfectly fine.)  Or we can always redefine terms but the world is a pretty large place, things like this is not decided by one or two country.

--------------
Oh, if you protest in Canada, nothing much will happen.  Until you violate the law ofcourse.  As I said, there is (I think 2, one is more like China, the other more like Lenin) communist party in Canada.  You are free to influence others in Canada.  (What is wrong with sharing with others what you think is best for the country?)

There are a lot of "demonstration" in Ottawa.  It is not a news any more.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-3-31 18:39 編輯 ]

dye

Canada also has a lot of oil.  Oil sand or in the middle of Alantic Ocean.  It is worst than coal.  Canada also has diamond.  Diamond at the bottom of a lake in artic.

Chinese has a proverb that paralle the West:  When there is a will, there is a way.  If Canada can mine the oil sands, build a oil rig in the high sea, and transport diamond on a frozen lake, so can China refine coal.

Why is it that China produce iron ore but buy still from Japan?  Why do China mine silicone but buy their chips from Japan?  I am discussing with my father today:  Why is it that the Japanese are farming on the mountain, when our Chinese counter-partner (my village, live as long as history recorded) is having a difficulty having a harvest on flat piece of land in Gunagdong?

Thing turn dire when the country is unstable (political).  When they sent scholar down the drain during cultural revolution.  When they suppress freedom of speech which hurts the academia, because now they have to think if it is politically correct. For the same reason, Christians censorship earlier in history hurts the academia when everyone must consider if what they are saying is biblically correct.

Curruption also made coorperation on public project difficult.  How much public money has been funneled out of the public project into the pocket of who-knows-where?

State command economy hurts the efficiency of factory.  You may want to check Russian made pen, it is known example of how much it will do to industry tech.  Command economy disadvantage is multi-facet.  People living poor is only one of the effect.  As I oversee the factory, and communicate with the foriegn traders, the sloppiness culture is still a problem in China.   

The wound on the pocket can be healed quickly, but the wound at the heart will take time to heal.
------------

If China do not have so stiff a relationship with the others, foreign investment can go in and build the needed factory to do the job.  The Cultural Revolution that incite riot in foreign country, the Korean War against UN hurts the reputation a lot. (Especially the war China fight with UN. )  
---------

There is a Chinese saying:  I am only hating that I am unable to turn iron ore to steel.

dye

You Tube is not an authority of history in Tibet.  The history I read show that Tibet has not always been part of China.

Will Russia invade China?  You think they are prepare for the local resistance?  Korea?  China has always beat Korea and treated them like a puppet country.  We HAVE done a few massacre to them.  A threat form a weak country like this?  Maybe not.

India is our friend.  They help defend us during WWII by sending materials and keep China from collapsing under Japan for so long.  Besies, we have Hamalaya (and Tibet) inbetween.

The key here is: everyone is exhausted from WWII.  No one really want a war nor are they capable of starting a war.  When they want to fight with China, they are fighting something like 100:1.  Even if they won, it should be costly enough to deter anyone.

------------
If you speak of tolerance.  Look at my ancestor.  They are SLAVE to the Hans.  Yes SLAVE.  Chinese capture another "Chinese" because they are not Han,

What do they say when the mogol rule China in Yang?  They are barbarian.  They make
laws to segregate different "race" (Han is at the bottom)

The Ching Manchu?  They are barbarian.  They make rules to seperate Han from Manchurian.  Han is not allowed to hold high office.

What about massacre in Yang Zhou by the Manchu?  Yue Fei peom about eating the meat and drinking the blood of the barbarian?

What about the concept of respecting the emperor and hunting down the barbarian (which is later learnt by the Japanese to haunt us as they view as as barbarians)
-----------

Sure, we can read the map of China throughout the dynasty.  For example Qing:



Are we going to invade and conquer the land at the tip of the head to "take" back our land?

Or Ming?



And admit that Tibet is NOT part of China?

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-3-31 22:30 編輯 ]

dye

There are a lot of wise statemen in China (or any country).  Wen Jia Bao, for example is one.  Deng Xiao Peng is another.  However, they can't know everything.  If all the wise stateman are encouaged and allow to participate in the country's affair, the mistake will be found quickly and corrected.

Democracy (including republic) is not a perfect system.  People in other country knows it.  But it is the best system we have discover so far.  Why?  Because it has a feedback.  The problem of dictatorship is not that it will always have terrible governace (look at the properity during Tang), the problem is that it is incapable of self-correction (hence a tendency to spiral down with one or two mistakes.)

Zi Chan (?) in ancient China knows the importance of feedback and build the first "university" to gather "opinion" from the public (the place is call "University" at the time to "educate" the civil servants).  He also stop minister from procecuting man with critism of the state.

It quickly turns the kingdom of Zheng to a rich country even between the constant threat of Chu and Jin.  (While feeding the population, giving tribute to the 2 superpower at the time, contributing to rule of law, blocking the interferce of internal afffair from Jin or Chu even after his death)

Ok, it is not exactly a democracy, but the 2 major principle is there.  the same can happen in China.  (As I see it)  A democratic China in Communist's name?  (Just like Canada, a secular Canada in Chistian's name.)

-----------
Chu, by the way is a victim of discrimination of Chinese.  Called barbarian, the Chinese always united to fight against them purely because of race.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-3-31 22:49 編輯 ]

dye

Here is a summary of the situation as described by Chinese

The Chinese History of Tibet
Tibet has been part of China since the Yuan dynasty (1271-1368). Centuries ago Mongol and Manchu Emperors ruled or influenced large parts of Asia. During the Tang period (618-907), the Tibetan King, Songsten Gampo, married Princess Wen Cheng. The Princess is thought to have had alot of influence in Tibet. During the Yuan dynasty (1271-1368), Tibet was part of the Mongol Empire which was under Yuan rule. At this time, the Yuan Government implemented residence registration, levied taxes, and imposed corvee duties in Tibet. China's "White Paper" claims that the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) "replaced the Yuan dynasty in China and inherited the right to rule Tibet." During the Manchu rule (1644-1911), the Qing army on a number of occasions entered Tibet to protect it. Finally, in 1951, China and the Tibetan Local Government signed a 17-point agreement concerning the peaceful liberation of Tibet. During this time, The 14th Dalai Lama supported this liberation and acknowledged Tibet is one part of China.

===============
As describe by the seperatist:

The Tibetan History of Tibet
Tibet has a recorded history of statehood extending back to 127 B.C. In the seventh to ninth centuries, the Tibetans often bested the Tang dynasty in battle. Additionally, during this dynasty, the marriage of Princess Wen Cheng and King Gampo was viewed as a strategic move to achieve cooperation and peace between Tibet and China. In 821, after centuries of periodic fighting, China and Tibet signed a treaty where boundaries were confirmed, and each country promised respect for the other's territorial sovereignty. During the Yuan dynasty (1271-1368), the Mongol leader, Genghis Khan, conquered most of Eurasia including China. Thus, instead of China claiming a right to Tibet, Mongolia could assert claim to both China and Tibet. There is no historic evidence to support the assumption that the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) ruled Tibet. In fact, the Qing Emperor in 1652 not only accepted The Fifth Dalai Lama as a leader of an independent state, the Emperor also treated Him as a Divinity on Earth. During this period, Tibet was known in Chinese as Wu-si Zang or Wu-si Guo (guo meaning country). During the Manchu rule (1644-1911), the Qing army was asked by Tibetans to settle disputes. But, this does not support China's right to Tibet. If it did, then the U.S.A. should claim Kuwait and Haiti since it assisted these countries. In fact, on a number of occasions, Tibet exercised power over China, suggesting that perhaps Tibet should claim China! At the time of China's invasion in 1949, Tibet possessed all the attributes of an independent country recognized by international law, including a defined territory, a government, tax system, unique currency, unique postal system and stamps, army, and the ability to carryout international relations. Two years later, the 17-point agreement was imposed on the Tibetan Government by the threat of arms after 40,000 PLA troops had already seized Tibetºs eastern provincial capital, Chamdo. The Tibetan delegates were threatened. The seal of the Tibetan Government was forged by Peking. In Tibet, The 14th Dalai Lama could not freely express His disapproval. However, soon after arriving in India, He repudiated this Agreement stating it was "thrust upon the Tibetan Government and people by the threat of arms." If Tibet had always been a part of China, why was there a need for the 17-point agreement? Finally, the Atlas of Chinese History Maps (published by Chinese Social Science Institute in Beijing) depicts Tibet as an independent country that was never part of China at least before 1280.

================
I think everyone is in an agreement that Tibet is NOT part of China before Mogolian rule.  Since we know that China's history do not begin from Mogol, we can conclude Tibet has not "always" been part of China.

I think the question is always when in history do we draw the line?  For example, we can see that Korea is also part of the Mongol emperor more than Tibet.  Ming also control it and mingle with its internal affair as Tibet.  Qing also control it as much as Tibet.

Do we hence conclude Korea is part of China and set to conquer it too?

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-3-31 23:59 編輯 ]

dye

Political leader need to realize that country border is just like life describe by Buddhism.

The first principle of become a Buddha:  Every law in the world is a flux.
(The seccond is a realization that there is no self.  Applying to a country is that there is no country.. but only a temporal composition of people.  Just like a composition of karma and conscious is cmmmon mistaken to be 'self')  

It is in a constant flux.  History is ONLY history.  The border should not be determine by hisory but people living on th land today for the reasons they have today.  In the UN charter of human rights, people should have the rights of self determination.

dye

But Tang Xiao Peng is just like a Buddha.  He knows how to let go!

It is all a shade of each porperty.  A half ass Buddha like Wen is much better than full blown demon like Saddam.  (There is an in-between like Bush)

dye

The initial reason the European country conlonize China is because they are unable to have trade balance with China.  We keep selling to them and keeping their silver.

This trade balance have not change from the beginning until
a) They introduce opium
b) The government lose a war and need to pay for it

Surely we have lose a lot in the years, but China is also one of the richest country in the world in many ways for many years.

Surely we do not have 1.3 billion in the past, but we do not have much of a technology or backbone structure in the past neither.

-----------
Japanese also left over
a) factory
b) skills

The "enemy" we are facing is no in a good shape.  How many plane do we really need? (Many of those powerful' country is bomb to ashes and is in a recovery phase.)
-----------

For the fishing Island, how much trade would you trade for the fishing rights around the island?  If two country is at a hostile relationship, it become bvery difficult to conduct business.  If two country is at war, it will make business nearly impossible.

The trade volume between China and Japan is quite large.  Many people's job and livelihood DEPENDS on the two governments not turning hostile. (The current trade at stake here by 2006 is around USD200b, at 2007, USD260b.  How many fish is needed to fill in the gap if the two government turn hostile and we lost 10% of the deal?)

How many LIVES would you trade for the fishing rights? (If they declare a war.  A single bombing raid is all it takes to kill a couple thousand living at the coastal area.)

If they want to claim Guangdong, it will be different.  There are a huge population on land.  PEOPLE make up a country.  They have a right to decide which country they belong, no?

----------------------
Talk about strategy today is strange.  Converntional fighting simply does not work between powerful countries.  If China fight a war with Japan, we will be talking about a nuclear winter very soon.  (Unlike Taiwan, Japanese has assets across the globe to make an influence, their assets are also owned across the globe to magnify the influence.)  We will need CAVES, not island.

--------------
Many what we consider Chinese today is consider not Chinese in the past.  Indeed, they are half Chinese IF we need to look at history.

Why is it that after living generations in China (my client), whites in China is still called "Lao Wei"?   

-------------
In DNA, when a Yellow and a White have a child, neither White or Yellow gene will disappear.  The way to make the gene pool shift (to Yellow) is to have a natural selection against Whites.  Otherwise you can keep breeding for thousands of years and there will be the same portion of the population that is White.

With no natural selection, a population with 90 Yellow and 10 White will remain 90%Yellow and 10% White.  The Yellow will not be able to dilute the White as the population grow or shrink.  Work out the math and you should see what I mean.

From how most people look simliar today in China, you can already know what has happen in the past.

-----------
When people speak of leting go, it mean capitalistic economy.   Where MOST but not ALL of the economy is controlled by private sector.

Why is there a famine in China under communist?  Because the government command everyone to grow cotton instead of food item.  Because the governemnt command everyone to 'try' refining their tools into steel in their backyard.

In my village in particular, because the government commanded everyone to use their techique and damage the soil (When everyone in the village know the techique will not work).  

-----
If you let people act freely, the price of rice will skyrocket (in fact it has in black market), farmer will farm more food item, merchant can purchase some from our neighbour (or smuggle as is used in those time in black market)

How do you believe the population get to so large in the first place?

I have much more confidence in Chinese picking wisely and against the priest when they are allow to act freely.

-----------------
Looking at staistics, country who open trade and get foreign development investment do get improvement in health and education.  It is simply a fact.  The African countries that do not get an improvement are exactly those that do not open up.

As Adam Smith would say, people get their meat from the butcher not because the butcher is merciful.  It is because mutually beneficial to do so. Foreign investor gain a benefit from educating their workers on health, skills (including science), etc.

If US owned a huge part of China (which is possible by going in backdoor, through various different country, and mayby they already has), they will pay for Chinese education not because they love us, but because it benefit them too.

How do Shanghai becaome the top city in China in Qing when they are 'govern' by so many foreigner?  Precisely because of a concentrated foreign investment.  (Oh, yes the city is almost controlled by foreigner.  Oh, yes the enterprise is owned by foreign enterprise/government.)

Looking at history, when did Guangdong begin to prosper?  When we begin to trade with foreigner. (At Gunagzhou, as written in the museum in Gunagzhou)

-------------
PLA fight

A war with UN/South Korea in Korea (tie) Chinese lost anywhere from 152k to 422k life.  US lost from 32k to 60k life.

A war with (communist) Vietnam (partial success)

A war with India (Won), why do India lose a war if they really get a military support from US?  

I have a hard time believing the number who publish number but not held accountable for it.

-----------
Now back to HK.  The place is highly commerce-literate.  Karl Marx would have said the mode of production dictate the culture of its people.  HK mode of production IS commerce.  

If HK try on natural science research, its success is limited. A world class research project requires more money than a single city's budget.   Even Bristish government itself is unable to fund a project on its own and relies on EU to cover the bills.  

For China, it would ask the question of why HK among many other city?  For its above average living cost? (When a research cost 5k, in HK, it cost 13k?)  For its lack of water resources? (How do you build a fresh water facility if the city is already buying water from GuangDong?)  Lack of space?  (If you can sell the piece of land for billion, you are going to make a experimental farm on it?)   Think about launching a rocket in HK..umm.

But HK do have research, little ones like surgical technique, medical treatment (the hospital is there anyway)  Cell phone technology (Beta tester is everywhere here!), etc..

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-4-13 16:59 編輯 ]

dye

One of the question is WHY you are unable to read news from China?

a) no service provider? (no demand?) Well, I have watch CCTV in US.
b) government banned it?

If it is b, you know that you can sue the government.

Do the censorship in US include
a) jailing/executing people who spread the wrong idea? (On the latest news)
b) blocking a whole horde of foreign news agency? (part of CNN, BBC, TVB, ATV...etc)
c) jailing/executing/fining people holding "books with wrong idea" for passing the border? (As is written at custom of China)

All these is done legally.  Not some fanatics killing on the street.  Richard Dawkins can walk through Bible belt and stay alive (even protested).  But UN observer is not allowed in China at all.

There are always people who wish to censor the press.  But it is legally censoring and censoring using government budget that is the problem.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-4-13 16:26 編輯 ]

dye

Dear P,

a) The diplomatic group is commerce in nature.  In businese world, welfare and money speak by itself.  Words only lubricate the main course.  As business world (at top level) is full of deception, words no longer translate from my experience.  Too many word, too little action is a common problem of people (including me).

b) I am already the more polite within the group.  Consider the rest of te group, I always wonder why they do not get arrested in US. (Anything from sexual harrassment, racial discrimination to vandalising public property..)

c) Anyone that can give us better life is our friend.  As one of the 'dude' we meet said "word is nothing"

It is the same idea on Fishing Island.  If letting Fishing Island be an 'international' open sea, or share the policing/management duty around the island between the two nation can avoid conflict, who care about the ownership?  Or even leaving it alone as buffer zone?

Chinese government at the moment already has their people welfare at heart and try to downplay the issue just as they have done in the border issue with the other southern nations.  Least you realise, Japan is not the only country that has an issue with us on the ocean border.  YET there are hot headed nationalist (both side) that keep bringing it up with 'fanatic' behaviour...

I have my own view on the island.  I think it is a mis-understanding from the beginning.  We own it, but we show no presence on it for such a long time (no inhabitant, no visible activity) that Japanese 'mistaken' it as an unclaimed island.  They have been fullfilling the 'duty' of policing the area for quite some time while we are being an abensentee landlord.   

When we finally settles the scores, it becomes very difficult to explain to Japan as each is only seeing from their perspective. (Sounds exactly like some housing case in HK)

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-4-14 09:02 編輯 ]