dye

My opinion is that it is not worth joining.  (I consider myself a secular humanist.)

<<我們這個充滿生命力的傳統源出於不同的源頭，包括:
1. 在不同的文化中，不約而同地都有著對超自然事物及終極實在的直接體認，這些經驗帶領我們的靈性得以更新及獲得存活的創造力及生命力;>>

Today science show us some are lies/fraud, some are fables, many are simply mistaken.

<<2. 先知及先賢的行為及格言鼓勵我們去以公義，憐憫及愛的力量抗衡邪惡的權力及制度;>>

Abraham tell us to kill his own child for God, Moses tell us to stone anyone who work on Saturday.  Joshua demonstrate to us what it meant to genocide.

<<3. 世界不同宗教的智慧啓導著我們去過道德及靈性的生活;>>

Inquisition?  Crusade?  Imprisoning scienist, opressing woman, slavery, etc...

Modern time, Israel -Palestine crisis?  The Ireland civil war?  Anti-science, etc...

<<4. 猶太教及基督教的教訓指導我們以愛人如己去回應神的愛;>>

Everyone with or without religion has that.  In fact, many has had that much earlier that Judaism and Christanity.

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Sorry to say, there are some like Grandhi (Hindu) that deserve respect, but there are other like Joshua (Christian) that deserve to be condemned.

Sometimes, it is only right to call a horse a horse.

dye

In a sense, when UU speak of "spiritual", it has an assumption of dualism.  Meanwhile, our neroscience has pointed a strong indication that we are monist.  That there is not "spirit" operating behind the "body".  Without a spirit, a person can't reallly grow spiritually.

A person can, however, be more mature, having more critical thinking skills, gather more information, cherish memories...etc

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Pick, for example  <找尋人生意義, 為何而活> can be a philosophical problem.  Many solution to the problem drew no reference to religion.  

<人從何來> Is a SCIENTIFIC problem.  We know evolution is the path (hence no defining line between human and other creatures, any 'scientific' religion will have to account for the human-ish ape and the ape-ish human.).  We suspect about abiogensis.  We can approximate the age of this universe.  We postulated the BIg Bang.  We are currently working on multiverse hypothesis...etc  

<死後歸宿> assume a dualist position.  If we are a monist, we vanish with our body, much like the software of a computer 'vanish' with the computer.

Rather, if you have your brain split in 2, and one side believe in one religion while the other believe in another, where will 'you' be going after death?  (A neroscientist once joke about it from a real case in his expereiment)

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2007-4-10 10:04 編輯 ]

dye

According to study with Israel students, the reading of bible will lower their sense of morality towards genocide.

On the other hand, we have other study on mroality showing that religion has no effect on moral in adult.  

On the thrid, we have US study that religion (namely Christanity) is positively related to crime, both in frequency, and severity.

The data is inconclusive.

----
So, <<道德規範導人向善是不可爭的事實>> is simply not compatible with objective scientific study.

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I am against non-sense and bullshit. (No offense to Shitshit)

If there is a religion that has less non sense and bullshit, I tend to be more "friendly" to it (like Budhism).

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2007-4-10 10:17 編輯 ]

dye

<<我不信<<道德規範導人向善是不可爭的事實>>是錯的...  好簡單的是, 你睇下阿婆拜神時驚得罪神而唔犯罪及燒香, 偷野令良心受責備等, 唔需要數據, 你都知呢件事係活活出現在生活的事實>>

This is a poor statistical reasoning.  

What you need is a double blind study.  When the old lady do nor 拜神, you will probably find that she will behave the same.  (Something the US moral study is showing)

On the other hand, we need a statistic pool to allow for error.  We DID see old lady who worship some kind of God get into crime...

---
<<數據是其中一樣可考慮的因素, 但不是事實的全部...
收集數據的方法, 揀的族群(你無可能全球人一齊統計掛?), 條件在環境的變異等, 都影響著數據對比真理反映的真確性~ >>

We can have a meta study.  (Such as the one with religion negatively correlated with IQ/Education)  

That is why I would say it is inconclusive that religion did bad.  But it certainly against objective data that it did good.

If you truely believe it is a <<是不可爭的事實>>, please provide your data (should be simple if it is that obvious).  You even have The Templeton Fund Foundation (more money than Nobel Prize) as your financial backup.

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Statistic (done correctly), is just detail recorded observation with some critical thinking.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2007-4-10 11:04 編輯 ]

dye

Here is a bit of intereting thought.

Suppose to pick Chinese male over 30yr  in HK with income over HKD10k/yr for study.  You take your sample within only within this group and compare the non-theist with the theist in the group.

It is a small pool with selected features.

But if the effect is universal, it should not matter.  It will only matter only if
a) It has a different effect on male over female
b) It has a different effect in HK over other region
c) etc...

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Think of it this way, you are measuring the weight of a set of balls  in HK and comparing their weight with respect to each other.  take your sample within only within this group and compare the non-theist with the theist in the group.

If someone said "but you are only measuring it in HK and hence not accurate!"  He is implying that the gavitational force operating differntly in differnt region of the world!

(Note: Even if the person measure it on Mars, the COMPARATIVE weight will be the same because the example here happen to be univeral in the universe.)

------
Times Article, for your reading pleasure

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2007-4-10 11:14 編輯 ]

dye

According to wiki, the organization (worldwide) consist of:

Humanist - 54%
Agnostic - 33%
Earth-centered Part of so call 'New Age movement'- 31%
Atheist - 18%
Buddhist - 16.5%
Christian - 13.1%
Pagan - Part of so call 'New Age movement' 13.1%

Then again, some will not be able to see the difference and lump everyone togather as New Age

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2007-4-10 18:28 編輯 ]

dye

"多元"不是一個無敵符咒。UU總不會加入日本軍國主義、或3K黨理念。

如此，何以卻有基督教分支？JOSHUA明明白白地認同種族屠殺和各和種戰爭罪行。

如果真的人本主義，何不加入BHA等組織？

————
注：UU本由兩個基督團體結合而成

<<四份一是無神論者>>
VS
<<At last count, 19% of Unitarian Universalists said that they did not believe in any type of god.>>
<<Eighty-one percent of Unitarian Universalists believe in God, and 19 percent do not believe in God.>>—AGNOSTIC 呢？？？

<<人本主義者>> 在UU 中包含了　Religious humanist，即一人可同時為基徒和人本主義者
正如UU說<<Universalists who do not identify primarily as Christians connect with these sources. >>

（奇怪的是，佛教也是無神論，卻要給分開。有點像問你是男人還是光頭）

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2007-4-11 09:57 編輯 ]