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基督徒歪論#2

本帖最後由 dye 於 2010/10/22 10:32 編輯

回復 7# 出位基督徒

你誤會了。

這句指是不一定有直接因果關係,比如信徒一般智力較低

關係是有的,但
一來不知誰是因,誰是果(是信教令人笨,還是笨人才信教?)
二來可能是有一個共同的因 (因為教會專挑苯人傳教,見基徒CS LEWIS的解釋)

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我看你和沙文的分歧不是LOGIC,是你們對耶穌去死有不同看法。
1) 沙文對耶穌的死視為救贖的重點
2) 你似乎不太重視耶穌的死

問題是,以基教教義,救贖不是一定要活人祭嗎?如果耶穌沒死(經上說,他真的沒死,只是…暈了),人仍能得救贖嗎?
自動報效?

「笨人才信教」吧?
因為如果是隨機,信徒和非信徒智力平均應一樣。
本帖最後由 dye 於 2010/10/22 11:36 編輯

「正確來說救贖是要用沒有罪的血。不是活人祭」
那耶穌是死得多餘了。輕輕地刺自己兩刀便可以了。要量的天天放一點便可。

這正是
「2) 你似乎不太重視耶穌的死」

你明白了這點便知沙文所說的關係
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一般說,死不死至少要醫生檢查一下才算。閉上眼的人不一定是死人。斷了氣的人也未必是死人。

就聖經形容,這不算死。(例如有屍斑?僵直了?)
沙文,為何耶穌不是女人?反正「正確來說救贖是要用沒有罪的血」,如果耶穌是女人便肯定不用死了。
生個聖嬰係女仔仲好 -- 個個月自動有寶血幫我地贖罪, 方便又夠多
沙文 發表於 2010/10/22 11:43


英雄所見略同。

善哉,善哉
本帖最後由 dye 於 2010/10/22 12:30 編輯

45From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi,[c] lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"[d]
47When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah."

48Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."

50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

54When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, "Surely he was the Son[e] of God!"

55Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. 56Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

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No checking in Mathew

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33At the sixth hour darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"[c]
35When some of those standing near heard this, they said, "Listen, he's calling Elijah."

36One man ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to take him down," he said.

37With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.

38The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and[d] saw how he died, he said, "Surely this man was the Son[e] of God!"

40Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome. 41In Galilee these women had followed him and cared for his needs. Many other women who had come up with him to Jerusalem were also there.

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No check provided
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Jesus' Death
44It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
47The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God and said, "Surely this was a righteous man." 48When all the people who had gathered to witness this sight saw what took place, they beat their breasts and went away. 49But all those who knew him, including the women who had followed him from Galilee, stood at a distance, watching these things.

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No check provided
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31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," 37and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."[c]

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He is not testifying Jesus is dead.  Besides, he is only a soldier, not medically trained.

Think about how high the cross is, did the soldier even take his pulse?  Or check if he is faintly breathing?  

He just "look" dead, just like anyone in coma.
刑事毁壞罪, See

12The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.
15On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written:
   " 'My house will be called
      a house of prayer for all nations'[c]? But you have made it 'a den of robbers.'[d]"
「正確來說救贖是要用沒有罪的血。不是活人祭」 VS  「唔得,罪的公價是死。要死。」
如果你付了$去買貨,後來又拿回$,你能同時拿貨不放嗎?

如果你付了命去買貨,後來又拿回命,你能同時拿貨不放嗎?

你是選擇性失明,看不見昨天付了$,還是選擇性失明,看不見今天已拿回(即沒有付)。
他是是說看來死了,沒探鼻息,沒探脈博。
本帖最後由 dye 於 2010/10/22 15:31 編輯

當時羅馬兵何來醫學水平?
他沒有探鼻息,沒有探脈。連當時能做的也未必有做!證詞和旁觀者何異?

證詞是旁觀者出,他以羅馬兵沒有打斷耶穌的腿來說明耶穌已死。
除以上,仍可能
1) 羅馬兵偷懶 (打斷腿,仍得等他死)
2) 羅馬兵趕時間,一矛刺下應比打斷腿死得快(因為節日,和有富商買下耶穌屍體)
3) 耶穌沒觀眾(打斷耶穌的腿原意是要活受罪,以殺雞儆猴)

不說他們不見得會做足功夫,即使做足功夫,仍是很難肯定一個是否死了。尤其時間是如此短。
http://www.snopes.com/horrors/gruesome/buried.asp

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活人祭不一定主動去殺來獻上,見那之前把女兒獻上上帝的兄台。活人祭制色是把活人弄死祭給神明。

http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh/%E4%BA%BA%E7%A5%AD

人祭Human sacrifice)是一种古代宗教仪式祭祀,即用人作为祭品来祭祀神灵,与它相似的仪式有动物祭。在整个人类史上,各种文明均发生过用活人祭祀的现象。
本帖最後由 dye 於 2010/10/22 15:39 編輯

有天我去REFUND,

我付了$去買貨。$付了,貨是我的。一個交易完結。
後來又拿回$。 在第一個事件完結後,$已經是賣家的。所以你不是拿回$,是從賣家手上拿他的$。不是還他的貨。

所以我$、貨兩得。

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反過來,
我付了$去買貨。$付了,貨是我的。一個交易完結。
後來我把貨給回他(某些原因)。 店家是有責任退回$。他拿回貨後又拿着$,一般來說是不妥的。
本帖最後由 dye 於 2010/10/26 17:16 編輯

「看一看當時羅馬人發明的刑具, 它們是如何精密, 如何能使人受最大和最長時間的痛苦才死去(甚至乎死不去). 就可以想像到當時一個羅馬兵丁對痛苦和死亡的認知絶有可能比現在的醫生還多.」

醫學水平並不見證在其刑具精密。劊子手不都是學者。發現GERM THEORY,發明疫苗等等的人也是劊子手嗎?

做禮儀師也天天看見死人,但禮儀師並不一定有對痛苦和死亡的高度認知。

更何况羅馬人發明的刑具,並不是羅馬兵丁發明。

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「請看一看羅馬釘十字架的規則」

我是看DISCOVERY 介紹的。
一來你以為有守則便會遵守?做 羅馬兵很好PAY?做 羅馬兵學問高?有獨立監管嗎?
二來你以為那種簡單守則能有效?

你以為當初為何要「死了」仍要補他一矛?

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「你去餐廳吃飯,結算時要付一百元。你付了一百元以後服務員說公司有十周年抽獎。你一抽之下抽中了一百元現金獎。所以你又拿了一百元離開餐廳。我仲可唔可以控告你食霸王餐」

可以說你沒有付$。但卻不一定能告食霸王餐,因為餐廳代付了。
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