dye

The size of UK arm force in total: around 429k people (including Territorial Army)
Regular army : 100k

Compare:
War with UN/South Korea in Korea (tie) Chinese lost anywhere from 152k to 422k life.  

1078 death for UK in this particular war.  

100 times.  Chinese lost (to 4 times) the whole UK regular army in a single war.

dye

You are free to start your own company.

Access to information is a service that require resources to obtain.  It is NOT part of your freedom.

If they really have you give you the service at a lost, you will have just robbed their freedom.
------------

Search your pocket, you have money too.  You just do not have enough to buy the stuff you like.

If you have a market, you can create the next telecom tycoon (or you can join one existing and exert your influence)

dye

"Remember, they had McArthur to aid them back then, we don't."

McArthur to sit on top of their government?  I thought Chinese WANT to be rule by Chinese.

--------------------
"Nope, most wars we are talking about today (if feasible) are regional wars for natural resources. And in fact, nuclear war will be very unlikely even if Japan invaded China again. (Though the fundies in US? Well ... now I'm worrying if McCain gets up there)"

If your family member is dead in the war, how is that still a war of natural resources?
How is the government going to escape the scandal when they have LOST they rightful territory (they believe) AND life of its citizen, miltary AND civilian (in thousands)?

They will be pushed into using extreme measure just as they have in WWII.

----------------------
"Dude, there's a limit of natural resources and maximum possible production on the economical presumptions."

Actually no.

If two country trade, the possible production maximum raise on both side.  THe greater the trade, the higher the max.  Technology also raise the max every day (to infinity in long run)

"And considering how much China invested on foreign going students and how many of them became missioners and in term screwed science in their own country, NO, I'm pretty in distrust in the central government on this issue - they're over confident with the effects."

In economic/science, you consider the alternative.

IF they do not send, there will be 0 return.  They will have to reinvent the wheel at home.
If they do, even if only 1 in a 100 return, they still have one.

Labour is very cheap in China anyway. The hundred people that is sent is only small change to China.
----------

Take a look at Africa today.  South Africa for example.  Compare to the close up country like.. Somolia.  Check the difference yourself.

-----------
Is the suffering caused by Qing?  Or the business that flow into the country?

Why is it that when HK is taken over by the British, the CHINESE flouish as much as the Bristish?

Just because both side is Chinese, does not mean they will deal fairly.  Where do you think those 'fake' baby food, 'fake' soy sauce, 'fake' beef come from?
--------------------

"Basic" exactly the point.  
You notice that your city is connected to other city with no country border?

You know technology can flow quite freely within a country but not so freely between country (even between China and HK)  Pick for example, Any Lau (HK) almost get jail for learning a XiChuan arts techique.

How do you plan to conduct a reserch when you cannot get a hand on your research subject?  I think you over romantize the researching field.  Their are a lot of 'footies' in the field doing work to support the dudes in the city,
------------

Sorry, you do not seems to understand that you do not need a product to earn a buck.

US earn their buck by service, so is HK, so is most of the richest countries today.

You do not need to produce anything to sell because HK is a marketplace for both product and ideas.  A 'hui' as in 'Tai Po Hui' in traditional Chinese sense, and the village consider to be a 'hui' typically has very good transportation but not much production.
-------

HK commerce school is top ranking in the WORLD.  You cannot expect a commerce student to be well verse in science, just as you can't expect a science student to be well verse in commerce.

dye

"WRONG. If our colonial left behind government has the least amount of responsibility to abandon Noah's Ark (which is 800 million government money) and give that to Science, it can fund at most 100 basic plasma physics research projects."

Is it when the British are around?  Or when he Bristish left and the Chinese is operating their system?  Are we going to blame every fault that happen 50 years from 1997 to UK?

The city is a commerce city, typical fellow has a culture of commerce.  If it promise to earn a buck .... (Con artist industry is still an industry.  Expect income from tourist?  It is just like opening a casino.)  

This kind of bullsh-t will have a hard time happening in Beijing because of all the technocrate up there.  It will hurt the eyes of our engineer-turn-premier.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-4-16 10:49 編輯 ]

Nomad

>Is it when the British are around?  Or when he Bristish left and the Chinese is operating their system?  Are we going to blame every fault that happen 50 years from 1997 to UK?

Under the British government Chinese were quite allowed to be educated only within 2 decades before the return of the state, only 5 years before the handover when HK suddenly gets what is called elections and 7 universities and all the others.

Says something? Yes, before the significant "threat" of Chinese taking over and uncover to the world that the Hans in HK are enslaved to be skin broke, the UK would never had give you quite a lot of human rights.In fact, they will still impose every high official as white, and Chinese will still only be the people who cleaning up the streets and their churches.

Who works in the nike factories which is essentially in another sense "colony of the corporation" anyway?

I mean, please. Stop ignoring it. You won't get a candy only for being nice to someone who believes that the only way is to dorminate (Christians)


>The city is a commerce city, typical fellow has a culture of commerce.  If it promise to earn a buck .... (Con artist industry is still an industry.  Expect income from tourist?  It is just like opening a casino.)  

You're talking about a city of commerce that would think they can live with screwing up their own communication techology, barring enterprise, control speech by religious officials and teaching creationism "as the only science" in schools.

Thank you.

>This kind of bullsh-t will have a hard time happening in Beijing because of all the technocrate up there.  It will hurt the eyes of our engineer-turn-premier.

No, it's simply because that place is secular and people cares.

[ 本帖最後由 Nomad 於 2008-4-16 13:42 編輯 ]

Nomad

>Is the suffering caused by Qing?  Or the business that flow into the country?

You really want to make a case against the historical facts of opium, missioners robbing the locals and foreign colonisers act with no threat from law? Or that they're all but Qing's fault - a huge, huge slip of responsibility? (You might as well make a case to say it's the fault of the Jews to get Halocausted as they pissed the Germans.)
I mean, seriously?

>Why is it that when HK is taken over by the British, the CHINESE flouish as much as the Bristish?

That is VERY late after it happened. Also, that "the CHINESE flouish as much as the Bristish" is by itself an overstatement. Again, look at the political rights.

>Just because both side is Chinese, does not mean they will deal fairly.  Where do you think those 'fake' baby food, 'fake' soy sauce, 'fake' beef come from?

Nope it doesn't. However, at the very least it is not as bad as colonialism - again, does the African slaves gain a lot? No.

>You know technology can flow quite freely within a country but not so freely between country (even between China and HK)  Pick for example, Any Lau (HK) almost get jail for learning a XiChuan arts techique.

Yes but most of HK's lack of flow is rather due to HK's closure towards mainland academia.
"The evil atheist" is still a prominent thinking in HK academia, which as a developed society exhibits the world distinction of having the religious right - rather than the liberals - controlling the academia. This is the only reason why the general public in HK will never be scientific literate.

>How do you plan to conduct a reserch when you cannot get a hand on your research subject?  I think you over romantize the researching field.  Their are a lot of 'footies' in the field doing work to support the dudes in the city,

When was the last time you actually look at the research sector? I mean, seriously.

NO. A lot of basic science research comes from garage made experiment kits. I mean, seriously, go to the lab and you'll realize. Most of the equipment were by no means requires "expansive huge piece of land bla bla bla". Others welcome colaboration from all parties.

For example, ITER in Europe was never done by France alone, nor EU alone. A lot of design, modelling and data analysis comes from United States - the big plasma physics schools (MIT, Princeton, U Michigan, U Wisconsin...). With the light and needs of science, you can see the most unimaginable scenary of "the evil atheist communist China" actually joinning European and American scientists to set a foot into the project.

Even something as big as a fusion tokamak research can easily fit into a university's basement.

>HK commerce school is top ranking in the WORLD.  You cannot expect a commerce student to be well verse in science, just as you can't expect a science student to be well verse in commerce.

Who the hell do you think populates the top of the financial sector? Financialists? Give me a break.

And virtually all the top mathematicians they hired are by no means educated locally. Says something?

[ 本帖最後由 Nomad 於 2008-4-16 14:05 編輯 ]

Nomad

>If your family member is dead in the war, how is that still a war of natural resources?
How is the government going to escape the scandal when they have LOST they rightful territory (they believe) AND life of its citizen, miltary AND civilian (in thousands)?

>They will be pushed into using extreme measure just as they have in WWII.

After some one thousand soldiers got killed and another two millions Iraqis got killed, Bush happily get up onto the stage claiming that God told him to rule America (Just only because those 60% - or 51% people were that religious). And they still made it to lie to themselves that it's an oil war when oil price went up and missionaries flushed into iraq from all over America (except MA, maybe).

period.

It's all too easy to escape all those scandals with religion in hand - all, too easy.

>Actually no.

>If two country trade, the possible production maximum raise on both side.  THe greater the trade, the higher the max.  Technology also raise the max every day (to infinity in long run)

Simple natural resource limit: Fossil fuels, amount of jungle you can chop down, water resource ... (list goes on)

>In economic/science, you consider the alternative.

>IF they do not send, there will be 0 return.  They will have to reinvent the wheel at home.
>If they do, even if only 1 in a 100 return, they still have one.

Yes, but that doesn't mean you should go consider unrestricted release of bullshit.

>Labour is very cheap in China anyway. The hundred people that is sent is only small change to China.

Labours are very cheap. Air tickets and education fees are not.
In fact, it's better educate some over the others if you do know that that's what they'll do.

------------------------------------------------------------------

As this point I must say I should apologize about the tone - I'm "compassionate" about the point I'm trying to make, that's all (WTF?). Hope we're still friends after this is over (WTF?XD)

Nomad

>Sorry, you do not seems to understand that you do not need a product to earn a buck.

>US earn their buck by service, so is HK, so is most of the richest countries today.

US earned their bucks by service before because they actually sell technological DESIGNS around the world ... well, until the church took over and screwed up everything...

>You do not need to produce anything to sell because HK is a marketplace for both product and ideas.  A 'hui' as in 'Tai Po Hui' in traditional Chinese sense, and the village consider to be a 'hui' typically has very good transportation but not much production.

Just how many people can you feed with finance?

Nomad

原帖由 dye 於 2008-4-16 08:59 發表
The size of UK arm force in total: around 429k people (including Territorial Army)
Regular army : 100k

Compare:
War with UN/South Korea in Korea (tie) Chinese lost anywhere from 152k to 422k life.  
...

Grrr ... just realize I got caught again.

I mean, after the vietnam war? (only after which Teng had secured his power)

dye

"Simple natural resource limit: Fossil fuels, amount of jungle you can chop down, water resource ... (list goes on)"

Fossil fuel:  
Replace part of it by solar power, hydro power, biomass power
Better design cars and engine
Better design roads

All these will extend the fossil fuel limit (eventually what you want is not the fuel, but the activity driven by the fuel)

----------
Jungle can be replanted, better cutting technique, better contruction methods, going electronic (instead of paper), etc

All these will extend the Jungle limit (eventually what you want is not the jungle, but the activity driven by the jungle)

-------------
Water resource: we can have more dams, better water management with recycle water, water efficiency scheme, at worst, we have desalination plant, etc

All these will extend the water reources limit (eventually what you want is not the water, but the activity driven by the water)
----------

The common theme here that TRADE will help is efficiency if goods is traded.  

The other common theme here is innovation that can come if ideas are TRADED.

dye

With a couple company's headquarter sitting in the city?  A lot of people can be fed.

Not to mention all the management team, little accountant, marketing team, market researcher.  Then we will have people that manage the logistic of all the survival essemtials (food water)

Then we will need the technician for the telephone conference, video conference.  We need exhibition specialist...

---------
You may notice a lot of great city is at the finance hub of the region.  For example, Guangzhou of Guangdong region.  For example, Shanghai of southern China.  For example Vienna of Italy.  For example, Hamburg/Frankfurt of Germany.  Mumbai/Bombay of India.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-4-16 19:48 編輯 ]

dye

Japan also sign unequal treaty when they first met the missionary/army.  Yet they are able to rebound and kick Russian butt not long after.

Whereas before the sign those treaty and open the border, their hot headed nationalist can fire cannon all they like to the foreigner's ship and get defeated with ease.

----------------
How is it that Qing get kicked over and over again?  The difference, is in the government.

The opening is the good move in and of itself, but it is not a magic bullet and need follow up by the government.

Besides, Qing has only open the border partially to the foriegner... (China has a lot of inland city that is inheritly difficult to open up physically)

dye

Hk has free press too.  If you wish to critisize Christian, you will not be arrested.

But if you want to be obscene...  well, China also ban obscene materials too.  It is a cultural thing.

If you want to say you do not have the money to do so, why not earn a buck?
Top
1) industry:import export trade
2) Real estate and businesss service
3) Whole sales and retail trade
Bottom

Two kinds of activity dominate the economic activity of HK today
1) Service
2) Finance

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-4-16 20:35 編輯 ]

Nomad

原帖由 dye 於 2008-4-16 19:39 發表
"Simple natural resource limit: Fossil fuels, amount of jungle you can chop down, water resource ... (list goes on)"

Fossil fuel:  
Replace part of it by solar power, hydro power, biomass power
Bette ...

That is if the other party ever cared.

Historically speaking, none did.

Nomad

原帖由 dye 於 2008-4-16 19:59 發表
Japan also sign unequal treaty when they first met the missionary/army.  Yet they are able to rebound and kick Russian butt not long after.

Whereas before the sign those treaty and open the border, t ...

That's because they adapted the best strategy to survive at that time: buy their technology, reproduce them and kill the missionary.

Nomad

原帖由 dye 於 2008-4-16 20:33 發表
Hk has free press too.  If you wish to critisize Christian, you will not be arrested.

However, if done so outside of this forum, I might as well get killed, and the murderer facing "the utter punishment" of 200 hours of social service.

原帖由 dye 於 2008-4-16 20:33 發表
But if you want to be obscene...  well, China also ban obscene materials too.  It is a cultural thing.

China does not have an effectively "religion board" to do that.

Nomad

原帖由 dye 於 2008-4-16 19:43 發表
You may notice a lot of great city is at the finance hub of the region.  For example, Guangzhou of Guangdong region.  For example, Shanghai of southern China.  For example Vienna of Italy.  For example, Hamburg/Frankfurt of Germany.  Mumbai/Bombay of India.

And you missed out the fact that all of them are also industrial hubs of the region, historically
And most if not all of them were also academic centers.

You can't have one without some of the other two.
Again, think New York. If you hate the Yorkers, think even Frankfurt.
Oh, Chicago too! And Los Angeles!
They're all financial hubs, and won't have been half as much a financial hub for long without all the tech they had.

[ 本帖最後由 Nomad 於 2008-4-17 02:53 編輯 ]

dye

Obscene material IS censored in China.  It has a board to do that (religion or not).  You will not find Adult Video playing at night like what people have in US.  

------------------

You want a bet?  I critisize Christian openly in a restaurant in HK, nothing happen.

Don't be paranoid.
----------------

US is lobbying China to protect its environment for example.  None did?
As prices goes up, the market force made eople do it, and it HAS happened before.

------------
You can't buy UKs boat without a few pounds in the pocket. You do not get a few pounds in the pocket until you trade.

Did Japan stop the trading after they defeated Russia and close up to  cacoon again?  Hell NO!

-----
While trade may lead the con-artist in, trade do not neccessary means foreign con-artist will flood the market.

People will make choice.  Those who need a heaven will pick their favorite artist (political or religion).

When is the last time you heard people refusing to open door for their guest because they are afraid that the wolves will come in?

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-4-17 09:00 編輯 ]

dye

Chicargo begin as a trading hub of  Algonquian peoples.  The rivers make it a transportation hub.

LA is also a trading hub for the native tribe. (For raw material)

Frankfurt is also on an important trade route in the past.  It is cheaper for goods to pass through Franfurt than around it.

-------------
By the logic, HK is also a great city, is it also an academic center?

Where is the great city of Waterloo even though it has invented the blackberry you use?

The trading is the cause, science is the result.  If you have science without trade, you have Waterloo/Kitchener.

If you have trading without science, you have HK.  You can buy in the technology needed.  

(Science is not profitable until they are turn into technology, technology is not profitable until they are properly marketed)

It is interesting to know the property of steam (science).   It has a potential to be profitable when someone build the steam engine (technology).  But it will only be profitable if someone would use it (marketing).

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-4-17 09:27 編輯 ]

Nomad

原帖由 dye 於 2008-4-17 08:57 發表
Obscene material IS censored in China.  It has a board to do that (religion or not).  You will not find Adult Video playing at night like what people have in US.  

It has a board to do that. And that board was never a tool of the church that would ban arbitrary article like the same board in HK.

原帖由 dye 於 2008-4-17 08:57 發表
You want a bet?  I critisize Christian openly in a restaurant in HK, nothing happen.

Don't be paranoid.

Now try print that on the shirt you sell.

原帖由 dye 於 2008-4-17 08:57 發表
US is lobbying China to protect its environment for example.  None did?
As prices goes up, the market force made eople do it, and it HAS happened before.

US is lobbying China to protect its environment not by selling environmental friendly technology (except Clinton)
But by restricting China from using energy.
It's not a environmental move but a political exploit to disrupt the economical growth.
When did they cared about Indonnesia and Africa?

And your foreign country's resources will never be a price problem for the locals unless the other country restrict it.

原帖由 dye 於 2008-4-17 08:57 發表
You can't buy UKs boat without a few pounds in the pocket. You do not get a few pounds in the pocket until you trade.

Did Japan stop the trading after they defeated Russia and close up to  cacoon again?  Hell NO!

Though they must have traded selectively, or, at least, on the condition of getting what they need.
In fact, the fun part is, that after Japan arises, they in turn learnt from the Europeans to destroy the other country's economy and defense, then start talking about "free trade".

原帖由 dye 於 2008-4-17 08:57 發表
While trade may lead the con-artist in, trade do not neccessary means foreign con-artist will flood the market.

Though, it does means so if one side limits their own export to such.

原帖由 dye 於 2008-4-17 08:57 發表
People will make choice.  Those who need a heaven will pick their favorite artist (political or religion).

And uneducated people are always stupid. Take a look at how many people were literate back then.

原帖由 dye 於 2008-4-17 08:57 發表
When is the last time you heard people refusing to open door for their guest because they are afraid that the wolves will come in?

What if you "guest" hides a pack of wolves behind him?

If my "guest" carries a gun, I'll certainly keep the door shut. You're welcome to do the otherwise