M2

如果以為讀大學唔駛交學費就真係好天真好傻！

Paul_Bard

http://tw.knowledge.yahoo.com/question/?qid=1007051805553

《山海經．大荒北經》
蚩尤作兵，伐黃帝
蚩尤請風伯、雨師，縱大風雨

----------------------------------
原來蚩尤好"搭馬"架

M2

小弟今次唯有自認好天真好傻。
原來"黃帝vs>蚩尤"係"隻揪"，唔係部族戰爭！
多謝賜教！

Nomad

>如果以為讀大學唔駛交學費就真係好天真好傻！

老天,連交學費和買學位都分不出的人...
學位果然...不是買的,就是教會擦鞋擦出來的OTL

>原來蚩尤好"搭馬"架

當年林肯都好搭馬啊
不過他被殺時算不算Genocide?

Nomad

>原來"黃帝vs>蚩尤"係"隻揪"，唔係部族戰爭！

原來在基督徒的字典中戰爭=Genocide


難怪他們次次打仗不強姦就Genocide了

dye

From what I read 黃帝's tribe has only expelled 蚩尤's tribe at the end (which is a suspected part of my ancestry).

But, hey, if  黃帝 did order to murder everyone on the land, I will condemned him too.  

BUT he is not God, he is not all knowing.  He may not know what he is doing.  He is not all powerful and may have very few option opened to him.  He do not have hindsight either.  So I would say he is condemned but most likely excused for what he did.  You know, if a baby put his hand into the electical outlet, it is not called 'suicide'.

Do we need to continue?  I also condemn Chun's first empire for his murderous campaign.  I also condemn Guan Yu's flood-the-city campaign in his later year.  BUT they are all limited in intelligence (brain power, or just pure information), power.  It will at least excuse part of their sick behaviour.

So what do you say, are you prepare to condemn God?
---------------

From what I understand of the time, "killing everyone in the tribe" is not a common practise in the area.  This tactic only begin at the warring states period.  Up to the Spring-Autumn period, the common mode is to conquer a city, not to murder everyone in it.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-2-21 16:24 編輯 ]

Paul_Bard

"原來在基督徒的字典中戰爭=Genocide"

就係因為佢地真係戰爭, 無滅族...

歷代志下 8:7 至於國中所剩下不屬以色列人的赫人、亞摩利人、比利洗人、希未人、耶布斯人，
歷代志下 8:8 就是以色列人未曾滅絕的，所羅門挑取他們的後裔作服苦的奴僕，直到今日。

佢地既敵人根本唔係善男信女, 唔好成日講到外族人係老弱婦嬬先得格...

申命記 7:1 耶和華你　上帝領你進入要得為業之地，從你面前趕出許多國民，就是赫人、革迦撒人、亞摩利人、迦南人、比利洗人、希未人、耶布斯人，共七國的民，都比你強大。

Nomad

記住:以上各「族」
都是以族為單位的
即是其他的族呢？
(咳咳...)

邏輯:我去西藏殺光了藏族,回族人,剩下當地的漢族人和苗族人 => 我沒有滅族。
真好。

>佢地既敵人根本唔係善男信女, 唔好成日講到外族人係老弱婦嬬先得格...

抱歉我從來不是絕對和平主義者
但是軍隊敗亡後剩下的沒有老弱婦「孺」的這種說法
的確只有未讀過大學的人才說得出來(大苦笑)

[ 本帖最後由 Nomad 於 2008-2-21 16:33 編輯 ]

dye

It is a genocide

Joshua 10
40 So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded.

-------------------
Did you forget they one of the tribe around there is ENSLAVED?  Remember one of the prostitute who betray her tribe is spared?

Or perhaps some of them manage to escape the genocide?  I mean, if a Chinese survive the Nanking Massacre, it is not a genocide anymore?
--------------
Oh, do you need to murder the kids, and the elderly?

Good old Joshua murdered these fellow even AFTER their army is subdued.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-2-21 16:35 編輯 ]

M2

如果趕人走唔算種族清洗，以色列趕哂d巴人走咪攪掂？
講到底呢個係爭奪土地既問題。

而家世界既共識(so to speak)係反對更改國界，但現時既國界咪係靠前人打生打死爭番黎。點解以前既人野蠻(以現代人既眼光)搶番黎既地方，而家就變左神聖不可侵犯既領土？如果支持維持現有國界，係未等於endorse以前既野蠻行為？

Paul_Bard

"記住:以上各「族」..."

唔係好明你的意思...

"抱歉我從來不是絕對和平主義者... 的確只有未讀過大學的人才說得出來(大苦笑)"

說不過去就挖苦別人, 也不是學識之仕的表現~

Nomad

>如果趕人走唔算種族清洗，以色列趕哂d巴人走咪攪掂？

四千年前蚩尤族走了到中國南部
現在巴人走哪裡?四處都是指著他們的槍。
如果你連城邦以前的時代和現代的地界問題都分不出來的話,學位恐怕真是買的了。(極大苦笑)

>講到底呢個係爭奪土地既問題。

哈,所以千年前耶和華的利益戰爭是理所當然
千年後還可以再打一次,之後呢?
殺完人就「與我無尤」,真好。

>而家世界既共識(so to speak)係反對更改國界，但現時既國界咪係靠前人打生打死爭番黎。點解以前既人野蠻(以現代人既眼光)搶番黎既地方，而家就變左神聖不可侵犯既領土？如果支持維持現有國界，係未等於endorse以前既野蠻行為？

如果你連有限資源和解決困難的能力下避免殺戮的折衷案和認同古代的野蠻做法都分不開...
...你的學位同樣很可能是賄賂得來的。

Nomad

原帖由 Paul_Bard 於 2008-2-21 16:39 發表
"記住:以上各「族」..."

唔係好明你的意思...

說得好清楚:
>邏輯:我去西藏殺光了藏族,回族人,剩下當地的漢族人和苗族人 => 我沒有滅族。
真好。

原帖由 Paul_Bard 於 2008-2-21 16:39 發表
"抱歉我從來不是絕對和平主義者... 的確只有未讀過大學的人才說得出來(大苦笑)"

說不過去就挖苦別人, 也不是學識之仕的表現~ ...

中學常識都沒搞懂還可以說:「說不過去就挖苦別人」啊！
老天...是我的幻覺還是這的確是教會洗腦強得令人乘除數都忘掉了的時代？

dye

The intent is different.  If the tribe is expelling without the intent of killing everyone, it is hardly a genocide.  

Israel is in fact using this to expell the Palestanian away.  BUT just because it is not a genocide, does not mean it is a moral behaviour.  (When it bgin to "cut" the water and transport in the region, it turns into a genocide)

Kosovo has just gone independent.  Quebec is also allow to vote about it.  Even though the boundary is changed, it is not exactly immoral.  The common understanding is that everyone has a bit of right to decide on which country you belong to.  (Perhaps you have to realize the question is HOW you are going to change the boundary)

-------------------------
With God's blessing, the tribe can live togather in harmony.  They can interbreed.
The Israelis has no need to fight for the land.  It is a very big place, duh.  With God's help, skyscraper is a piece of cake.

------------------------
The reason is obvious.  What is done, cannot be undone.  Let's begin a new life from a certain point on, and stop these genocide non-sense.

It is wrong in the past, it is wrong at the present.  We avoid these crime against humanity because we have made enough mistakes (even though Bible claim God command the genocide and proud of it)

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-2-21 16:53 編輯 ]

Paul_Bard

怎様定義為殺光呢?

約書亞時代和所羅門時代起碼相差400年, 還可存留得到可點算的數目?

dye

Someone manage not to breath?  Or someone manage to breath without God's detection?  Or perhaps there are some that not in the area at the moment of the slaughter and only come back later in time to be.. enslaved.

Joshua 10
40 So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded.

---------
If we are told that Joshua slaughter everything that breath around there.  Then we are later told that there are fellow of foreign origin in the area.  You think it is possible these foreigner moved INTO the area after the slaughter?

Or maybe Joshua lied?
----------
To be honest, it is not part of real history anyway.  Bible is LYING about it ever since the beginning.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-2-21 17:05 編輯 ]

M2

四千年前蚩尤族走了到中國南部，咁中國南部既人又左去邊，唔通跳落南中國海暢泳呀？

>現在巴人走哪裡?四處都是指著他們的槍。
家下仲有唔少巴人係落難約旦，約旦人冇搵槍指住佢地播。

>如果你連有限資源和解決困難的能力下避免殺戮的折衷案和認同古代的野蠻做法都分不開...
無論你支持或者反對科索沃從塞爾維亞分裂出去，都會有人唔認同。折衷案就正正係認同古代野蠻行為既後果，保存搶番黎既地方。

There are so many posts.........

  Hi Paul and M2, it's the first time for me to reply you two.

  Well, for those who kill under the Christian name, how could you be sure they are not "real Christian"? Suppose there are 2 kinds of "Christians": "real", and "unreal". The distinction is on something we can't observe. So, if a "Christian" kills, how could you know this "Christian" is "unreal"? Also, if it is really the case that "those committed any crimes (even if "in mind" only) are not real Christians", the number of "Christians should not be so much as 小妹 said ("1/3 of population"...). The question should be the following set:
1. Are you a Christian?
2. Did you commit any crime?
3. Did you think of killing ppl.?
4. Did you think of raping ppl.?
... (The set would be so....)
  If you simply say  that "all people committed crimes are simply unreal Christians", it seems not convincing, unless a good way of distinguishing "real" and "unreal" Christians is developed.
  By the way, we should make distinction between having double identity and using beliefs to do bad things. It is possible for a Christian to kill, and it is possible for a 無神論者to kill. If the two guys kill for reasons other than their beliefs, condemning the beliefs by these killing cases are irrelevant. (This is "double identity" for me). On the other hand, if one use certain beliefs as the reason to kill, the belief should be condemned. For Christian, it is normal for them to kill those who have opposing ideas, using the "word from God", and the "word from God" is the reason for them to kill. It is the "word from God" that makes people to kill. In this case, Christianity should be condemned for the killing cases. On the other hand, I couldn't find a case that 無神論者 make use of this belief to kill. However, IF this belief make people kill others, this 無神論 belief should be condemned also (but yet, no such case is known for me...)

To M2
  By the way, if the country boundaries are allowed to change by wars, there would be more wars and more people will die. I don't think it is because the guys endorse the previous wars.


  By weakest (not dared to login as I am now in public area)

dye

Oh damn.  The southern Chinese can live togather with them.  It is a large place even without God's help to build skyscrapper.

------------
Jordan is actually discriminating against the Palestanian refugee and is forcing them back.

------------
For Kosovo, majority rules.  Your proposal is just plain horrible, if it is so, they will be back to Yugoslavia and the genocide will start all over again.

Nomad

>四千年前蚩尤族走了到中國南部，咁中國南部既人又左去邊，唔通跳落南中國海暢泳呀？

你果然是連四千年前後的人口密度和資源情況都分不懂。
大學讀了甚麼?

>家下仲有唔少巴人係落難約旦，約旦人冇搵槍指住佢地播。

試試將人數上升成百萬?千萬?

倒過來將50年代新來的以色列人趕走到南非的話,我看倒會很多基督徒立即哭著臉說這叫野蠻。

(咦?原來我有說過這叫對嗎？我好像只說過趕走部落不等於Genocide,而已。)

>無論你支持或者反對科索沃從塞爾維亞分裂出去，都會有人唔認同。折衷案就正正係認同古代野蠻行為既後果，保存搶番黎既地方。

同樣錯。
所謂國界不變的折衷案,根本就是二戰以降才開始被放在桌上重視的
在甚至一戰的時代跟那些基督徒說說國界,叫他們歸還殖民地看看?
沒辦法,這就是基督徒,永遠不會考慮自己的行為,所以寫歷史永遠只有十分之一 - 就是替自己歌功頌德。

就是因為無論前因後果,現代的人已經住在那裡
現時再行改動(尤其根本不知道誰的傳說才對)只會無謂的發動國間戰爭,才有不改動國界的想法
(尤其他們並沒有參與屠殺也不從屬同一個政府)
(就連日本政府二次大戰前後都是改制的,只有基督教是二千年以來同一個。)
其次,並不是每個國界都是侵略得來的 - 尤其是那些被歐洲一眾基督徒榨乾到農地都沒有的一眾非洲可憐國度。

因為自己搶慣了,就索性指責全世界都是靠搶,而和平就是認同魔鬼,這就是基督徒。