weakest

What I can say is that:
1. the Christian God (if exist) is NOT omnipotent (it can't make all people believe in him), OR (inclusive OR)
2. The Christian God is not a good God. (Not killing people only if people obey him, this is evil)

HTBROKE1

原帖由 Guest from 123.2.245.x 於 2008-9-3 00:31 發表
yes.. and you know why God have to kill those people? im quite sure you know that God in Christian belief is also the heavenly father.. so yeh.. if a child does not even take him as father anymore.. w ...

真正的愛是無償的付出。不管是哪種愛。

我把你的論點以另一角度寫出來:

我喜歡一個女生,我為她付出了很多,但她都不理我。她算什麼,把她殺掉比較省事。

劈柴

"when people sin they will have to punished.. did you read why god did such "ungodly" thing?.. i bet you didnt.. so think before you comment things.. seriously."
1.people are punished because they have sinned? but according to the bible...today we are punished by death because adam and eve ate the damn fruit...what do you think if you lose your left arm tomorrow because your father touched a girl's boobs?
2. i don't only read "why god did such "ungodly" thing"...i also think  about it...and the more i think about it...the more i find it hard to believe in what i have read...
3. yes...indeed....think before you comment things...think before you go telling people to believe in something...

劈柴

"God punish human beings because of their sins.. you ever wonder why?.. you ever thought because of love?.. i bet not.."

yes...i do wonder why...punishment is suppose to be a method to correct mistakes...yet what god does is ETERNAL PUNISHMENT....which has no ability in what punishment should accomplish...

"i bet your parents punish you when u steal right?.. because they love you.. no?"
yes...but i don't think parents would punish their stealing child by chopping off his hands...

劈柴

so you are saying...those people got killed becasuse:
1. god love them.
2. they denied god's love.
then i think christians are right....god is really at a high moral level and human beings cannot understand him....because for a "father" to kill his own child out of "love" is not right even with human moral standard...

prussianz

原帖由 Guest from 123.2.245.x 於 2008-9-2 23:23 發表
seriously you guys.. have you really read the bible.. or understand it before you comment these things?.. you pull one verse out of the bible and use it to attack the bible...

i got plenty of exampl ...

i got plenty of examples if you guys need

o yes , we need it , please show us , ThANKs

prussianz

原帖由 劈柴 於 2008-9-3 01:11 發表
"when people sin they will have to punished.. did you read why god did such "ungodly" thing?.. i bet you didnt.. so think before you comment things.. seriously."
1.people are punished because they hav ...

3. yes...indeed....think before you comment things...thinkbefore you go telling people to believe in something...

smarter + cleverrer !!!


以 其人g道，[';台] 其人g身

原帖由 Guest from 123.2.245.x 於 2008-9-2 23:23 發表 [url=redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=29352&ptid=2361][/url]
so think before you comment things.. seriously.

ctaya

原帖由 Guest from 123.2.245.x 於 2008-9-2 23:23 發表
seriously you guys.. have you really read the bible.. or understand it before you comment these things?.. you pull one verse out of the bible and use it to attack the bible...

i got plenty of exampl ...

(1) "seriously you guys.. have you really read the bible.. or understand itbefore you comment these things?"

What makes you think that we have not read the bible nor understood it?


(2) ".. you pull one verse out of the bibleand use it to attack the bible... "

When you point to a piece of paper and say that it is purely white, if we can point to a tiny fade spot on that piece of paper, that is all we need to disprove your statement.

When you folks say that the Bible is irerrant and all true, we only need to point to an inconsistency in it to overthrow your statement.

(3) "i got plenty of examples if you guys need.. God destroyed whole earth and left Noah.. what you say about that.."

Are we surprised? Certainly not.

Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

So why should we be surprised?

By the way, do not mention the Noah Ark again. It is a shameful failure of your God. His intention was to kill all the sinful human beings. He selected the Noah family of eight out of all the human beings. What was the result? As you said, he really killed all but the Noah family. But sin remains. So He picked up the wrong family. His original plan and intention  failed miserably, except the killing part.


(4) "when people sin they will have to punished.. did you read why god didsuch "ungodly" thing?.. i bet you didnt.. so think before you commentthings.. seriously"

Again what makes you think that we had never heard of your old argument?

If your child sins, would you kill your child and burn him/her for ever?

Ask yourself seriously:

Where does sin come from?

Why did your God allow sin get into this world, even though He knew well beforehand the consequence of it?

Forget about that bullshit of "free will".

When your infant child crawls towards a cliff and you know that your child will fall over, would you stop that from happening or would you just say: it is the child's free will to fall over the cliff?

If it is the latter, I would say that you are, at the best, an irresponsible parent.

[ 本帖最後由 ctaya 於 2008-9-3 21:29 編輯 ]

ctaya

原帖由 Guest from 123.2.245.x 於 2008-9-3 00:11 發表
typical post-modernism... nothing is entirely right or wrong.. as long as one likes it.
God punish human beings because of their sins.. you ever wonder why?.. you ever thought because of love?.. i bet ...

(1)  "God punish human beings because of their sins.. you ever wonder why?.. "

Please refer to my previous reply.


(2) "you ever thought because of love?.. i bet not.."

You do not call killing millions or even billions of human beings "love" and then put them into everlasting torment as "love". You may need to make your own dictionary to justify that.


(3) "i bet your parents punish you when u steal right?.. because they love you.. no?"

Would you expect my parents kill me, and then put me in an oven to roast forever?

Come on. You must be out of your mind to come up with this kind of analogy.

You need to see a psychiatry if you think that this analogy is appropriate.

ctaya

原帖由 Guest from 123.2.245.x 於 2008-9-3 00:31 發表
yes.. and you know why God have to kill those people? im quite sure youknow that God in Christian belief is also the heavenly father.. soyeh.. if a child does not even take him as father anymore.. whats theneed of having such child? thats why.. sadly.. they were destroyed.

You are a sick man.

Do you mean that if a son does not accept a father, the father should kill him and torture him forever?

No wonder there have been so much human sufferings and so many killings in the name of Christianity.

Not only your doctrines are sick; believers like you are sick as well.

You speak as if there is no value in human lives.

So emotionless.

It is Protestant like you that make me sick.

If you live in Hitler's time, you surely would be one of those throwing the Jews into the gas chambers in the name of your God.

"Those who can get you to believe absurdities,can get you to commit atrocities." (Voltaire)

How true it is!

Jom

各位兄弟,有一件事我真係唔係幾明白....

眾耶徒三朝唔埋就話我地唔睇耶經唔明耶經,其實好唔好先搞清楚一件事,唔接受,係唔代表唔明白/無去理解過架.正如有人教仔用口,有人用手.但我總可以就一口咬定話用口果個就一定唔識用手果喎,反之亦然.

將個問題又回歸返最原點,其他人我唔知,我就唔係話阿老耶做過D乜令人咁唔接受,而係唔認為真係有老耶囉.如果都無呢家野既,咁耶經上既咪都係同西遊記既一類小說咁囉,多多假少少真咁又話出書咯.

點都好,寫果班傻信果班就仲痴,教仔用口用手都多,但邊有話用超必教仔架,教完一次個仔都死諗咗,咁不如一早戴套又或者顏射,唔好鬼生佢出黎吧啦.學沙兄話事解,真係五餅三魚呀....

山人乙

他們好像是不可以接受 有人看了耶經而不被催眠 這個事實, 因而硬套一個你不明白的帽子到你頭上. 這也難怪, 因為講理又講不過, 唯有硬說你不懂來安慰自己.

最近我和幾個耶徒傾談, 我談及我很多年前已經離教, 其中一個教徒感到很驚訝, 另一個更直說我以前一定不是一個虔城的教徒. 也不用了解我的過去, 一眼就看出我不虔誠.

基本上他們的思維很簡單, 創造一套自己覺得理所當然的理論, 硬塞給你就是.

[ 本帖最後由 山人乙 於 2008-9-3 22:08 編輯 ]

prussianz

原帖由 Guest from 123.2.245.x 於 2008-9-2 23:23 發表
seriously you guys.. have you really read the bible.. or understand it before you comment these things?.. you pull one verse out of the bible and use it to attack the bible...

i got plenty of exampl ...

any way , ThANKing for your teaching , welcoming

prussianz

原帖由 山人乙 於 2008-9-3 21:33 發表
他們好像是不可以接受 有人看了耶經而不被催眠 這個事實, 因而硬套一個你不明白的帽子到你頭上. 這也難怪, 因為講理又講不過, 唯有硬說你不懂來安慰自己.

最近我和幾個耶徒傾談, 我談及我很多年前已經離教, 其中一 ...

最近我和幾個耶徒傾談, 我談及我很多年前已經離教, 其中一個教徒感到很驚訝, 另一個更直說我以前一定不是一個虔城的教徒. 也不用了解我的過去, 一眼就看出我不虔誠.

他們，男 ?? 女 ??

ThANKs

prussianz

原帖由 山人乙 於 2008-9-3 21:33 發表
他們好像是不可以接受 有人看了耶經而不被催眠 這個事實, 因而硬套一個你不明白的帽子到你頭上. 這也難怪, 因為講理又講不過, 唯有硬說你不懂來安慰自己.

最近我和幾個耶徒傾談, 我談及我很多年前已經離教, 其中一 ...

最近我和幾個耶徒傾談, 我談及我很多年前已經離教, 其中一個教徒感到很驚訝, 另一個更直說我以前一定不是一個虔城的教徒. 也不用了解

could u share some of your 過去 or your 離教 experience ??

but ,
please ,
please dont leak out your privacy ,

ThANKs



ps : ::::: sorry can not write u out in Chinese

[ 本帖最後由 prussianz 於 2008-9-6 02:53 編輯 ]

Mara但以理

(1) "沒有意思說服不信既人, 和留言只為那些求明白神的離教者", 兩句都是真的。(留言分享給那些求明白神的離教者，但沒有計劃要每一個statement 作辯論回應來說服人信。)

(2) Prof. F. F. Bruce 當然是人，我只是想帶出參考資料的可信性。我實在討厭和一些在信仰上沒有立場、只是人云亦云、左quote右quote 的人對話。(我想你們應該不是)

(3)"如果你認為不了解耶神而信是沒問題的, 這不是一種謙卑的學習態度....."
我真的不認為有太大的問題。首先， 我覺得因為我不能全面了解全能的神 (好像我不知道不受時間限制看事會怎樣?怎樣才能令愛與公義並存?等等..) ，所以我唯有信，但這不代表我不追求對神的認識。我信是基於基督十架的愛和人生命的改變。 On the other hand, 我覺得如果要對神學有認識的人才能信，神的救恩就不是給所有人。

[ 本帖最後由 Mara但以理 於 2008-9-5 18:16 編輯 ]

Nomad

原帖由 Mara但以理 於 2008-9-5 18:09 發表
(3)"如果你認為不了解耶神而信是沒問題的, 這不是一種謙卑的學習態度....."
我真的不認為有太大的問題。首先， 我覺得因為我不能全面了解全能的神 (好像我不知道不受時間限制看事會怎樣?怎樣才能令愛與公義並存?等等..)，所以我唯有信，但這不代表我不追求對神的認識。我信是基於基督十架的愛和人生命的改變。 On the other hand,我覺得如果要對神學有認識的人才能信，神的救恩就不是給所有人。

一知半解而信都沒所謂
卻要要求不信的人「完全」理解耶經(而且所謂理解,還是教徒的定義之下的)
當教義存在著一個矛盾的時間,就要求外人投入更多的信心,花更多的時間
塞一堆同樣矛盾,或者隨時更改的神學出來

有趣的是,相反,一知半解而信亞拉,黃大仙或者是宙斯的人,偏偏是種罪過。

到最後這是一種典範缺憾所造成的標籤錯覺：所謂的「不信不是源於不理解就是源於人性的自私」。

Jom

nomad兄,唔通你唔明呢吓就係有容乃大咩?識唔識係其次,信得呢個阿公就乜都要撐住個字頭,唔好問,只要信,其實佢地一早就話咗俾人知.只係當住未信里班人面前要搵d理由黎說你入會,同拉返班破咗門既迷羊入黎之嘛.

Mara但以理

你喜歡信亞拉,黃大仙或者是宙斯，我都唔反對。我只係覺得要信就要信得認真點。如果唔係日後死鬼左，亞拉神問你為什麼又拜我、又拜黃大仙，果陣真係都唔知點答。
我唔信黃大仙因為我一點都唔覺佢有神的形象，佢唔保守我，我可以連香都唔俾佢食。
我唔信宙斯因為佢同我既生活一點都沒有關係。
而你又認識亞拉、穆罕默德有幾多?
我信基督耶穌，因他是唯一宣稱自己為神而且充滿知慧、慈愛、神跡奇事、勝過死亡的人。我愈看聖經，愈覺得耶穌既thinking 一點都唔似人既thinking，真的像神在說話、教導。
Sorry，我不覺基督教教義有什麼矛盾的地方。亦不覺得自己以迷信的心態來信神。只是我會覺得信是因為接受、明白神對你既愛，而不是因為對神了解有幾多。

只是我會覺得信是因為接受、明白神對你既愛，而不是因為對神了解有幾多。

good point.. there is no way us limited human beings can completely understand unlimited God