ctaya

原帖由 Guest from 61.160.107.x 於 2008-8-15 11:36 發表
人若不愿意顺服神，那么一定会成为他自己的奴隶，楼上就是这样的。

人必定成为自己情欲、贪婪的奴隶。

看不出與以下的說法有何分別。

"人若不愿意顺服 彿 ，那么一定会成为他自己的奴隶。

人必定成为自己情欲、贪婪的奴隶。"


空洞無物的論點。

ctaya

原帖由 山人乙 於 2008-8-26 13:57 發表


我想他謙卑的意思和我們凡夫俗子的意思不同, 是無條件地相信全本聖經, 不可提出質疑. 還有, 謙卑只是對耶神, 對非教徒哪用謙卑.

又要問那條簡單題目：

是誰買"血田" (field of blood)？

請引經文支持你的說法。

ctaya

原帖由 Guest from 58.215.27.x 於 2008-8-26 20:25 發表
...因为信神就要承认自己的罪，对于人来说，这点是何等困难的事啊。因为对于人来说，认错是世界上最难的事。

請問什麽是"罪"？

ctaya

原帖由 山人乙 於 2008-8-26 20:59 發表


不好意思, 請問甚麼是血田?
還有, 我只是猜測但以理的想法, 我也找不出甚麼經文支持我的猜測, 抱歉.

與"出賣耶穌"猶大有關的"血田"。

ctaya

原帖由 约拿·杨 於 2008-8-26 09:07 發表
若真正谦卑智慧的人能发现圣经的错误，那么或许圣经不真实，可惜那些只会大喊圣经不对的人都是骄傲的人，他们的作为不能说明任何问题。

奇怪的說法。

不真實便是不真實，與指出者的態度何關？

看來這條簡單題目倒可以找你幫手了。Mara但以理 也可幫幫忙。

是誰買"血田" (field of blood)？

請引經文支持你的說法。

ctaya

原帖由 Mara但以理 於 2008-8-26 23:40 發表
So , what do you mean?

還是那個老問題：

究竟是誰買了血田？

ctaya

原帖由 山人乙 於 2008-8-27 00:01 發表
唔. 個故事其實係咁o既...

猶大用出賣耶穌啲錢買咗塊田, 田就收咗, 但係未比錢, 佢諗起彼得成日周圍唱佢, 諗諗吓都係死咗佢算. 於是就上吊死咗, 點知佢重得滯, 條縄斷咗, 跌咗落地, 啱啱個地下有啲尖石, 督穿咗佢個 ...

我亦曾作過類似的故仔去解釋。個故仔可以用來勉強把猶大兩個死因用大纜扭埋一齊，但是誰買大血田就難搞些。

解决方法。

(1) 有兩筆錢。猶大收起一部份，只退回一部份。

(2) 有兩塊血田，一人買一塊。


正話說回來，從這例子看到聖經有前後不一之處。

ctaya

原帖由 Mara但以理 於 2008-8-27 00:46 發表
原來你想說這是矛盾，不是想知道為什麼會這樣。

馬太福音和使徒行傳都說出一個事實。馬太福音描述的是當時實在發生的情況。而使徒行傳以猶大的結局說明經上預言和職份。
由於當時祭司長以猶大的錢用猶大的名義買了那 ...

Ha ha.

笑破肚皮。  

ctaya

原帖由 prussianz 於 2008-8-27 19:05 發表

sorry , which thing to 笑破肚皮 ??

我和山人乙是鬧着笑，說猶大如何死。

但以理却一本正經的去解釋何者買血田。

馬太福音
27:5          猶 大 就 把 那 銀 錢 丟 在 殿 裡 、 出 去 弔 死 了 。
27:6          祭 司 長 拾 起 銀 錢 來 說 、 這 是 血 價 、 不 可 放 在 庫 裡 。
27:7          他 們 商 議 、 就 用 那 銀 錢 買 了 狛 戶 的 一 塊 田 、 為 要 埋 葬 外 鄉 人 。
27:8          所 以 那 塊 田 、 直 到 今 日 還 叫 作 血 田 。

但以理指祭司用猶大的錢買血田，法律上是猶大之田。此說亦勉强可通。

使 徒 行 傳 Acts
1:18    這 人 用 他 作 惡 的 工 價 、 買 了 一 塊 田 、 以 後 身 子 仆 倒 、 肚 腹 崩 裂 、 腸 子 都 流 出 來 。

使徒行傳中是指猶大買田。有任何閱讀能力的人，都看到是猶大買田，並不是委托祭司買田，因為猶大根本事前不知祭司會把錢作如此用途。他把錢丟在地上，便去上吊自殺了。何來 "這 人 用 他 作 惡 的 工 價 、 買 了 一 塊 田" 呢？

使徒行傳中，彼得言之鑿鑿地描繪猶大死的惨狀，但對其上吊而死却隻字不提。

他們對猶大的死可能都是聽從流言而來，故並不統一。我則傾向相信猶大因悔而上吊自殺之說，較合情理。

彼得那時要清算猶大，可能要誇張其死之惨狀。

ctaya

原帖由 Mara但以理 於 2008-8-28 01:18 發表


我主要目的不要為了爭辯而留言。我沒有意思說服不信既人。我留言只為那些求明白神的離教者。

...

(1) " 其實只要不是在網上隨隨便便quote 一些別人的引出的經文和論點，自己能認真的看多幾章經文，多看幾篇 "


你為什麽認為我没有讀經呢?
我是讀經的，中英文都看。幾乎每天都讀。由第一頁看起。


(2) "不難發現馬太主要是描述，使徒行傳在那段主要是說明預言和職份"

不錯，1:16 那段是涉及預言，以證明猶大領人捉拿耶穌是預言的應驗。
但從文中可見該預言並沒有涉及猶大的死况及血田。
所以 1:18 是事件的陳述而非預言的應驗。

請把聖靈藉大衛之口的預言，從經中找出。


(3) "Prof. F. F. Bruce對此的學術研究。但我認為查經一定要讀經，如果只是上網search 別人的論點，我不認為那是查經應有的態度。"

恕生也愚，沒有讀過他在此方面的資料。
當我讀到使徒行傳 1:18 時，覺得猶大的死况和血田的買主，與所知的有出入，故有此問。

經是有讀的，讀得比很多我認識的基徒還多，還用力。


(4 ) "我只想對那些求明白神的人說，如果聖經連一次也沒有看畢，怎能了解神。又豈能對神說灰心、失望。"

不知你為什麽認為除汝等之外，沒有人把聖經看畢。
是否認為，如果看了，當會心悅誠服吧？
告訴你，我是越看越不信的。

[ 本帖最後由 ctaya 於 2008-8-28 18:59 編輯 ]

ctaya

原帖由 Guest from 123.2.245.x 於 2008-9-2 23:23 發表
seriously you guys.. have you really read the bible.. or understand it before you comment these things?.. you pull one verse out of the bible and use it to attack the bible...

i got plenty of exampl ...

(1) "seriously you guys.. have you really read the bible.. or understand itbefore you comment these things?"

What makes you think that we have not read the bible nor understood it?


(2) ".. you pull one verse out of the bibleand use it to attack the bible... "

When you point to a piece of paper and say that it is purely white, if we can point to a tiny fade spot on that piece of paper, that is all we need to disprove your statement.

When you folks say that the Bible is irerrant and all true, we only need to point to an inconsistency in it to overthrow your statement.

(3) "i got plenty of examples if you guys need.. God destroyed whole earth and left Noah.. what you say about that.."

Are we surprised? Certainly not.

Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

So why should we be surprised?

By the way, do not mention the Noah Ark again. It is a shameful failure of your God. His intention was to kill all the sinful human beings. He selected the Noah family of eight out of all the human beings. What was the result? As you said, he really killed all but the Noah family. But sin remains. So He picked up the wrong family. His original plan and intention  failed miserably, except the killing part.


(4) "when people sin they will have to punished.. did you read why god didsuch "ungodly" thing?.. i bet you didnt.. so think before you commentthings.. seriously"

Again what makes you think that we had never heard of your old argument?

If your child sins, would you kill your child and burn him/her for ever?

Ask yourself seriously:

Where does sin come from?

Why did your God allow sin get into this world, even though He knew well beforehand the consequence of it?

Forget about that bullshit of "free will".

When your infant child crawls towards a cliff and you know that your child will fall over, would you stop that from happening or would you just say: it is the child's free will to fall over the cliff?

If it is the latter, I would say that you are, at the best, an irresponsible parent.

[ 本帖最後由 ctaya 於 2008-9-3 21:29 編輯 ]

ctaya

原帖由 Guest from 123.2.245.x 於 2008-9-3 00:11 發表
typical post-modernism... nothing is entirely right or wrong.. as long as one likes it.
God punish human beings because of their sins.. you ever wonder why?.. you ever thought because of love?.. i bet ...

(1)  "God punish human beings because of their sins.. you ever wonder why?.. "

Please refer to my previous reply.


(2) "you ever thought because of love?.. i bet not.."

You do not call killing millions or even billions of human beings "love" and then put them into everlasting torment as "love". You may need to make your own dictionary to justify that.


(3) "i bet your parents punish you when u steal right?.. because they love you.. no?"

Would you expect my parents kill me, and then put me in an oven to roast forever?

Come on. You must be out of your mind to come up with this kind of analogy.

You need to see a psychiatry if you think that this analogy is appropriate.

ctaya

原帖由 Guest from 123.2.245.x 於 2008-9-3 00:31 發表
yes.. and you know why God have to kill those people? im quite sure youknow that God in Christian belief is also the heavenly father.. soyeh.. if a child does not even take him as father anymore.. whats theneed of having such child? thats why.. sadly.. they were destroyed.

You are a sick man.

Do you mean that if a son does not accept a father, the father should kill him and torture him forever?

No wonder there have been so much human sufferings and so many killings in the name of Christianity.

Not only your doctrines are sick; believers like you are sick as well.

You speak as if there is no value in human lives.

So emotionless.

It is Protestant like you that make me sick.

If you live in Hitler's time, you surely would be one of those throwing the Jews into the gas chambers in the name of your God.

"Those who can get you to believe absurdities,can get you to commit atrocities." (Voltaire)

How true it is!

ctaya

原帖由 Guest from 123.2.245.x 於 2008-9-6 00:45 發表
you are right.. human lives have no value without God.
...

(1) "human lives have no value without God."

(a) God has no value without human beings. Without human beings, there is no concept of God. His vanity can only be satisfied with human's worshiping.

(b) In the eyes of Hitler, Jews also have no values.


(2) "its for God's love that we become valuable and have hope"

This kind of thinking can also be found in Judaism, Islam, ... and many other religions.

People like you find that their lives are empty without fitting into a grand plan.
They would be so despaired to invent something to believe in so as to feel important -- even God needs to baby-sit them, looking after their well beings.

I cannot see how being in an imaginary plan makes us more valuable.  


(3) "i believe in the bible because its not absurdities.. so i'll not commit atrocities.. "

If accepting the killings of children and animals is not absurdities and atrocities, I do not know how to describe it.

Accepting the absurdity of Sola Fide (Faith Only) is immoral and can turn people in committing atrocities because good deeds are no longer required for salvation. Goodness and kindness have lost their values in the face of faith.

If you are not sure whether you are a Protestant, I am not so sure what you are believing in.


(4) "good luck with your antichrist-ing"

(a) I do not count on luck and would care less on what the outcome is. Just want to inject some humanity into the minds of those die-heart Christians, who have lost their way in despising human lives.


(b) Anyway, anti-christ is not the same as anti-Jesus.

(c) Messiah is not necessarily a divine entity. Cyrus was a messiah and he is no divine.


(5) "there were only 120 believers after Jesus died on the cross how many there are now?"

(a) The same comment can apply to Islam and Buddhism. They started with few and see how many there are now. Islam has become the largest religion in the world now.
So what? More believers in a certain religion does not turn the religion into truth.

(b) Nearly all the Europeans were believers in the dark age. Are there more now?

(c) The fever of Christianity has been fading away in Europe. The process has started in the States already. Its only hope is in the less developed regions such as Africa and Asia.


(6) "1 John 2:18-22 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. ... Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son."

(a) I would never claim that I know all the truth. No rational men would. We only have limited knowledge. We are humbled by the vast amount of knowledge out there to be acquired, to be understood. I would not be so arrogant to say that all the truth is in one book as the Christians do.

(b) John said that almost 2000 year ago and obviously he had got it wrong. The early Christian founding fathers thought that the end of world was coming soon, even in their generation. They preached and acted in that way. But unfortunately, events turned out to be otherwise. Then they changed tune and collaborated with the Romans in bringing in Hellenistic elements into Christianity. What you believe now is not the teaching of Jesus but Pauline Christianity. Please study the history of religion.

(c) By the way, who can cheat the Christians, except those who disguise as Christians or those who claim knowing the truth from God? So, do not look for Ant-Christ from the non-Christians but among the Christians. Surely, we would not claim good relationship with God nor Jesus.


(7) "God bless you all.."

We do not need your blessing but would be glad if you folks stopping cursing against us.  

[ 本帖最後由 ctaya 於 2008-9-8 21:03 編輯 ]

ctaya

原帖由 Guest from 123.2.245.x 於 2008-9-6 00:45 發表
i believe in the bible because its not absurdities.. so i'll not commit atrocities.. ...

Most probably, before your conversion into a Christian, if someone told you that killing babies, children and animals were justified, you would dismiss that as absurd.

But now you have well accepted such actions as described in the Bible.

So someone might have convinced you of such absurdity.

Once convinced of absurdities, I cannot see how you would not be convinced further from committing atrocities when situation demands.

Ask yourself the following question.

Suppose now is the End of the World, the sinners have to be destroyed. Jesus comes back and leading an army to fight the Anti-Christ, Satan, the devils and their followers. You are honorably selected as a fighter for God and Jesus.

Your God ask you to kill all the non-believers that you know, including family members who can be your parents, brothers, sisters, relatives, those whom you love, friends, ... etc, because being non-believers and sinners, they are effectively followers of the Anti-Christ and should be punished by everlasting torment. In fact you have to push them into hell by yourselves to show your faith.

Would you do it?

Can you pass this great test to show that your are truly faithful to your God?

It is very easy for you folks to curse non-believers to be punished forever, to be burnt forever in fire and brimstone in hell. But it would be a different matter if you map familiar faces and names into these poor creatures in everlasting torment.

Next time when you curse, think of these faces and ask yourself the question that I present to you: would you do it?

Absurdity --> atrocity

That is a hard lesson learnt from history.

[ 本帖最後由 ctaya 於 2008-9-8 21:00 編輯 ]

ctaya

原帖由 Mara但以理 於 2008-9-6 13:42 發表
宣稱自己為神的不是傻子、就是騙子、或者真的是神。

耶穌並沒有宣稱自己為神。

你們並不是神，所以你們不是傻子、就是騙子。

[ 本帖最後由 ctaya 於 2008-9-9 08:43 編輯 ]

ctaya

原帖由 prussianz 於 2008-9-8 22:59 發表


>>>>>>>>> 耶好並沒有宣稱自己為神

sorry , who is `````耶好"""" ?? Jesus ?? o'Jesus !!!

手寫版出錯了字，一時不察，便發了帖。 已改正了。