香港, 朋友

龍井樹

各位朋友﹐ 我從“香港科學教育關注組”得知﹐ 屯門馬可賓中學強迫中一及中四學生參加「方舟不是神話佈道大會」。這中學邀請過吳宣倫這個神棍宣揚偽科學﹐ 老師也打壓那些堅持科學的學生。

學生上載學校發給他們的通告：
http://www.facebook.com/photo.ph ... aid=-1&id=730585743

PeterSo

教協啲人成日話要小班教學，話可以提升教學質素。如果佢吔真係咁關心教學質素，點解唔評論吓屯門馬可賓中學 ...
Guest from 210.177.124.x 發表於 2010/9/17 11:00

小班教學只是保飯碗的技倆，天䁱得教學質素有無提升。
大家同行，點評呀？

教協啲人成日話要小班教學，話可以提升教學質素。如果佢吔真係咁關心教學質素，點解唔評論吓屯門馬可賓中學強迫學生去「方舟不是神話佈道大會」事件？

唔通我入錯學校？我地嘅校長都唔喺呢“條”洪XX，佢憑咩嘢要交五十蚊比佢啊，學校唔喺教導真理嘅地方咩，走去信d無厘頭嘅嘢？唔信縱要比錢......O嗮！！香港的d宗教自由冇嗮！

dye

The voucher's money also goes to the school directly.  Notice that the money is NEVER in the parent's account?  The individual choice is only on which school to choose from.  Simliarly, there is a geniune choice in HK for school.  (The current subsidy arrangement is based on the number of students enrolled, just as it would happen in a voucher system, depending on age/grade, ranges 32-56k a year)

Ofcourse in the end there is a limitation in choice set by the government.  Notice that even the voucher system has a limit on what school the voucher can go to.  There has to be some minimum bar that the school has to pass before asking for subsidary.   HK is also trying a voucher system for kindergarten school, it has exactly the same problem here.

For IS school, the question is WHY they do not join the government subsidy program?  Why are they UNABLE to enlist in the government subsidy program?  MOST of the schools in Hong Kong is private in the sense that they are only subsidized and regulated, not directly managed.  You are NOT paying for quality, but paying to be DIFFERENT (Segregated in Wenweipao description), so different that the school falls out the SECULAR parameter setup by the government, that is the difference.

Suppose HK also have a voucher system like US, some international schools will still not eligible for the voucher (or they will refuse to recieve the funding to avoid regulation).  With reputation and experience of the charity school, they will still get most of the vouchers (and hence school funding).
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For minority interest, there steel making group in US, or the wood selling group in US also dominiate the freedom of US customer's freedom to buy cheaper goods.  If you ever buy diary product, steel product, wood product in US, chances is that your choice is limited because some interest group is 'supporting' the motion (and the party proudly admit it, too).  In democracy, political group siding with special interest group is a flaw that comes with the benefit.

The democrat also recieve support from other groups.  Just because it acknowlege one, does it meant it does not recieve support from others?  When it is one person one vote, if they side with any one interest group and 'significantly' harm the greater group, they will be voted out.

Again, it has to do with the fact that political party is a 'bundled package', there are greater issue over little item.
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Here is what the government ask for from a DDS school

http://www.edb.gov.hk/FileManage ... erence_documents%20(feb2010)r7-revised%206.pdf

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Here is the mechanism of choosing school for highschool in HK

http://www.e-c.edu.hk/tc/reform/resources/MOI&SSPA_report_Chi.pdf

http://www.edb.gov.hk/FileManager/TC/Content_1579/sspa%20powerpoint%202006-2008(parent)(web).pdf

咁學校基督教背景的，又要讀宗教科，平時都要睇聖經啦，仲要考試tim，他地年度主題又係方舟，個佈道會有些方舟的片刻睇，都有合理之處呀！

沙文

去之前未必知嘛

Nomad

你是EXCHANGE都不是去那種學校吧?
宗教政治參觀乎?XDDD

沙文

出國後参加student exchange program exchange咗來港

Nomad

有錢出國還呆在香港的中學去浪費時間麼XD

沙文

回復  沙文


到時他們記你大過加寫爛你TRANSCRIPT時,在香港你沒錢出國可能比小額錢債庭告更嚴重。 ...
Nomad 發表於 2010/7/5 21:13

我有錢出國

weakest

回復 7# beebeechan

只是你說的"人權"的"權力"有多大??
還好我不需要面對這情況....如果校長(或其他人)郁d學生, 算在你身上, 你可以給學生甚麼保證??
至於誰遷就對方較好, 似乎是可以討論的. 但如果有政策令人不滿, 是否不應表達?

Nomad

On the cost competition side:
This is an example of a school expenditure 2009:
http://www.cneccc.edu.hk/pop_up/ ... 09_P6night/q&a2.pdf
The government has spent 35,255,809 HKD for a school (p15) with 1239 enrollments (p.5), the equivalent aid given as voucher to a student directly, would be 28455, which is would be surplus for the cheapest international school, and drives the fees of the most expensive schools down by some 25%

On a so-called "pay more for better service argument", this would help:
http://paper.wenweipo.com/2006/05/30/OT0605300009.htm

Nomad

The US constitution is kept being used in the debate like this.  What did the Constitution say?

The ...
dye 發表於 2010/7/6 23:08

To use the Zelman case to compare the HK funded system is like saying Nazi Germany is a democracy (Hitler is elected by a general public vote system, after all!)

Government voucher in the Ohio program goes DIRECTLY INTO THE INDIVIDUAL, that is, in the case of HK, even if the individual chooses to go to a private school, or even an IS, the same voucher pays for it (or at least an equivalent amount of aid given to students who go to funded schools/private schools which government would pay for bought seats) Notice that ISes costs are high mostly because the schools (and the individual) receives no aid whatsoever, the equivalent voucher or ceasation of the funded school system altogether will make ISes far more price competitive with funded schools.

In case you don't even know what's a school voucher:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_voucher

In HK, government funding directly goes to the SCHOOL, NOT the individual, no individual can go a random private school and use the government voucher.

The same deal goes to the school bus issue - the school bus service directly goes to the individual, and has no religious content, an individual can use the same school bus service to go any school, a same deal in HK would be government providing buses to EVERY SCHOOL including ISes, as long as they apply for it.
(reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everson_v._Board_of_Education
A New Jersey law authorized payment by local school boards of the costs of transportation to and from schools - including private schools.)

An honestly similar case in HK will be the Kurtzman case, in which government, instead of providing voucher to the INDIVIDUAL, directly pay for school teacher salaries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_v._Kurtzman

And while a Legislature can hire, a chaplain to give prayer, it has no right to force people into praying, which is contrary to the case of a funded school in HK.



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The merit system won't ever work in HK because the economical ecology is botched - this is a piece of land only needs accountants, businessman, lawyer and politicians, it has no place for an effective academia or an effective R&D (therefore no place for any long term development), and has no producing industry. It survives to this day purely because some national government decides that financial business will be done exclusively in this place, and heavily subsidize everything sold in this city, as though it's some charity.

And the Legco will never do their job to "safeguard" people's freedom on this, because the "beloved" democrats all got their support from the the education sector/church sector and they didn't even hide it in the days of the previous CE - the way the system is run is simply a disgraceful law since it allows the individual's freedom to be stepped on for some interest group's interest, and no one has to guts to speak up to that just because it's on "the right side" of the cold war, and therefore they found excuses and make remotely dis-similiar comparisons from other countries and pretend they were doing as much.

A democracy is possible only because a people in general recognize every right the individual, and that every right is ought to be protected, even if that individual is not himself. That's why people in US fight for Gay Rights when they are heterosexual, and rule out direct government aid to religious schools (as in paying the school, not the individual) when they are Christians. Nazi Germany ends up Nazi Germany because people cares only about their votes prevailing and not a jack about the individual rights. In the end of the day, that's why Hong Kong people never stand up against it, and make up excuses to pretend there's no such a problem - because they don't want to face what they are, and where they are heading.

dye

Continuing on the constitution, we debate about Affirmative action.

In all three case of affirmative action, affirmative action is found to be uncontitutional:

Bakke v. Regents, Univ. of California (1978)
Grutter v Bollinger (2003)
Parents Involved v Seattle School District (2007)

What is uncontitutional about it?  In the earliest case
"The fatal flaw in petitioner's preferential program is its disregard of individual rights as guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment. . Such rights are not absolute. But when a State's distribution of benefits or imposition of burdens hinges on ancestry or the color of a person's skin, that individual is entitled to a demonstration that the challenged classification is necessary to promote a substantial state interest.  Petitioner has failed to carry this burden. For this reason, that portion of the California court's judgment holding petitioner's special admissions program invalid under the Fourteenth Amendment must be affirmed. "

In CITY OF RICHMOND, APPELLANT v. J. A. CROSON COMPANY [1989]

The judge has something to say about the arguement used.  (The affirmative action here is again ruled to be unconstitutional)  Can you see the merits basis for competition here in use?

"First, there does not appear to have been any consideration of the use of race-neutral means to increase minority business participation in city contracting. Second, the 30% quota cannot be said to be narrowly tailored to any goal, except perhaps outright racial balancing. It rests upon the "completely unrealistic" assumption that minorities will choose a particular trade in lockstep proportion to their representation in the local population.

.....
Nothing we say today precludes a state or local entity from taking action to rectify the effects of identified discrimination within its jurisdiction. If the city of Richmond had evidence before it that nonminority contractors were systematically excluding minority businesses from subcontracting opportunities, it could take action to end the discriminatory exclusion. Where there is a significant statistical disparity between the number of qualified minority contractors willing and able to perform a particular service and the number of such contractors actually engaged by the locality or the locality's prime contractors, an inference of discriminatory exclusion could arise.  Under such circumstances, the city could act to dismantle the closed business system by taking appropriate measures against those who discriminate on the basis of race or other illegitimate criteria.  In the extreme case, some form of narrowly tailored racial preference might be necessary to break down patterns of deliberate exclusion.

Nor is local government powerless to deal with individual instances of racially motivated refusals to employ minority contractors. Where such discrimination occurs, a city would be justified in penalizing the discriminator and providing appropriate relief to the victim  of such discrimination. Even in the absence of evidence of discrimination, the city has at its disposal a whole array of race-neutral devices to increase the accessibility of city contracting opportunities to small entrepreneurs of all races.

Because the city of Richmond has failed to identify the need for remedial action in the awarding of its public construction contracts, its treatment of its citizens on a racial basis violates the dictates of the Equal Protection Clause."

dye

回復 88# Nomad

HK is ALSO changing the administration.  (Which eventually lead to the Catholi challenging it and losing the legal battle with the government.)

You are the one that miss the point all along.

dye

The US constitution is kept being used in the debate like this.  What did the Constitution say?

The following will give an insight:

In Zelman v Simmons-Harris [2002]

The court rule that it is constitutional to allow the government voucher money goes to the religious school.

Why?

Because  
1) "The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, applied to the States through the Fourteenth Amendment, prevents a State from enacting laws that have the “purpose” or “effect” of advancing or inhibiting religion"

2) "There is no dispute that the program challenged here was enacted for the valid secular purpose of providing educational assistance to poor children in a demonstrably failing public school system. Thus, the question presented is whether the Ohio program nonetheless has the forbidden “effect” of advancing or inhibiting religion. "

3) "To answer that question, our decisions have drawn a consistent distinction between government programs that provide aid directly to religious schools and programs of true private choice, in which government aid reaches religious schools only as a result of the genuine and independent choices of private individuals. While our jurisprudence with respect to the constitutionality of direct aid programs has “changed significantly” over the past two decades, our jurisprudence with respect to true private choice programs has remained consistent and unbroken. Three times we have confronted Establishment Clause challenges to neutral government programs that provide aid directly to a broad class of individuals, who, in turn, direct the aid to religious schools or institutions of their own choosing. Three times we have rejected such challenges.... "

4) "There are no “financial incentive” that “ske[w]” the program toward religious schools"

5) "In sum, the Ohio program is entirely neutral with respect to religion. It provides benefits directly to a wide spectrum of individuals, defined only by financial need and residence in a particular school district. It permits such individuals to exercise genuine choice among options public and private, secular and religious. The program is therefore a program of true private choice. In keeping with an unbroken line of decisions rejecting challenges to similar programs, we hold that the program does not offend the Establishment Clause."

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For a very simliar line of reason, in EVERSON v. BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE TOWNSHIP OF EWING ET AL. [1947], The court rule that it is constitution for government to fund the buses that send children to religious school.

In particular, because it serve a secular purpose
"Its legislation, as applied, does no more than provide a general program to help parents get their children, regardless of their religion, safely and expeditiously to and from accredited schools. "

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You would wonder, with the seperation of Church and State, why is USA's holiday on Sunday but not Tuesday, on Christmas but not Lunar New Year?

McGOWAN ET AL. v. MARYLAND [1961]
The court gives us an answer.

"Moreover, it is common knowledge that the first day of the week has come to have special significance as a rest day in this country. People of all religions and people with no religion regard Sunday as a time for family activity, for visiting friends and relatives, for late sleeping, for passive and active entertainments, for dining out, and the like. "Vast masses of our people, in fact, literally millions, go out into the countryside on fine Sunday afternoons in the Summer. . . ." Sunday is a day apart from all others.  The cause is irrelevant; the fact exists. It would seem unrealistic for enforcement purposes and perhaps detrimental to the general welfare to require a State to choose a common day of rest other than that which most persons would select of their own accord. For these reasons, we hold that the Maryland statutes are not laws respecting an establishment of religion.... "

In other words, yes it has a Christian beginning, but it is a custom of the people.

Not convinced?

MARSH v. CHAMBERS [1983]

The Legislature is using government money to hire a chaplain to gives a prayer to each opening.  It is constitutional, too!

The court says
"In light of the unambiguous and unbroken history of more than 200 years, there can be no doubt that the practice of opening legislative sessions with prayer has become part of the fabric of our society. To invoke Divine guidance on a public body entrusted with making the laws is not, in these circumstances, an "establishment" of religion or a step toward establishment; it is simply a tolerable acknowledgment of beliefs widely held among the people of this country."

In other words, yes it is religious, but it is custom and history of the people.

三教童

其實要解決這些問題﹐關鍵在於學生
就算這次取消了﹐那麼下一次呢﹖
為何沒有學生作罷課行動去抗議呢 ﹖
一間學校真的大部份學生都喜歡聽聖經課 ﹖

試想想﹐全港大部份學生都罷聖經課
甚至罷其他課抗議
而引起傳媒、政府注意
那些學校可以點樣﹖難道全部將學生趕出校嗎﹖

當年 54 非基督教運動﹐靠的是學生寫文章、貼佈告欄
資訊不算發達﹐亦算已經一挫了當年基督教學校的氣焰
壓制了它們強勢獨裁的作風

今時今日互聯網如此發達﹐資訊傳達如此發達
要聯繫一間甚至多間學校學生有幾難﹖

連對付基督教學校霸權這些不會流血的抗爭﹐
學生都尚且沒有 guts
恐怕連以"噓聲"表達不滿的膽子都沒有

dye

"it's never always a better performance that makes a firm survive - look at those oil companies."

Ofcourse it is not (the key here is ALWAYS, because it usually is).  Not all system is based on merit, and merit or goal is measure differently for different stakeholder.  

For a Christian, for example, he/she is probably more interested in getting the kid indoctrinated than educated.  For HK government, merit is basically based on getting an educated workforce.  

For the investor of a company, profit is a merit, and so is corporate governance, and corporate conscience.

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The gatekeeper in HK education system is HK government monitored by the Legco.

dye

回復 94# Nomad

Wealth, just like reputation, and experience is gathered through time.  The weaker group will eventually catch up just like your school.

The underdog usually has an advantage of growing faster.