jimmychauck

回覆 20# 抽刀斷水

上帝介紹自己係"I AM"吖嘛，hayah asher hayah 吖嘛，中文咪譯自有永有，永有嘅野就spacetime fabric裡面揾唔到嘅，時空又其實係四維，上帝又係有預定，咁個結論咪創"世"個世係時空，包埋時間囉。

呢啲係成堆學者好多年解經嘅共識，你有時間咪探討吓囉，但又鬼叫你唔再睇聖經？你係咪認為你以前睇左十幾年宜家記憶又開始差啦但係就準確過晒咁多人睇？

Q:where in the scripture it claimed that God also created time? from which or how many intertrepretations was this conclusion arrived? is there different interpretations amongst protestants?

A:The concept that God created time is primarily a theological and philosophical conclusion drawn from scripture rather than a single, explicit verse that says, "God created time."
1. Scriptural Basis for the Conclusion

The conclusion that God created time is primarily derived from passages that describe:

• God as the absolute origin of all things:

  • Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The very phrase "In the beginning" implies that the universe, and the chronological beginning of its existence (time), started with God's creative act. Before this "beginning," only God is understood to have existed.

  • Hebrews 11:3: "By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." This emphasizes that the visible, material world—which includes the dimension of time—was created by God from a non-material source.

• God's existence outside of time (Timelessness/Eternity):

  • Psalm 90:2: "Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God."

  • Isaiah 57:15: "For thus says the High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy..."

  • 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 1:2 refer to God's plans made "before the beginning of time" or "before time began."

  • 2 Peter 3:8: "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." This is interpreted as showing God's perspective transcends human time.

The logical conclusion drawn from these verses is that since God existed before the "beginning" of all things (Genesis 1:1) and exists in a realm called "eternity" (Isaiah 57:15) where human time is relative or non-existent (2 Peter 3:8), He must have created time as part of the created order—the universe beginning in time.

2. Interpretations Among Protestants

Yes, there are different interpretations amongst Protestants regarding God's relationship to time, specifically concerning the creation account and God's nature:

[td]

View	Summary	Key Interpretation of Time
Traditional/Classical Theism (Dominant View)	God is Timeless (Atemporal). He exists outside the constraints of created time, seeing all moments (past, present, future) simultaneously.	God created time as a dimension of the physical universe, and He is its transcendent Creator. This is the most common philosophical and theological view.
Process/Open Theism	God is Temporal (Omnitemporal). He exists within time and experiences events sequentially, just like creation, though His duration is "everlasting" (no beginning or end).	God did not create time itself, but He has always existed in it. The concept of God "learning" or "changing His mind" in scripture (e.g., Jeremiah 3:6-7) is taken literally.
Young-Earth Creationism (Literal Days)	Genesis 1 describes six literal 24-hour days. This is the most literalistic interpretation of the creation account's chronology.	Time began at creation and the six days are literal, physical measurements of time, often cited using Exodus 20:11 which compares the human work week to God's creation week.
Old-Earth Creationism (Day-Age Theory)	The "days" in Genesis 1 are long, figurative epochs (long periods of time) rather than literal 24-hour periods.	Time began at creation, but the duration of the creation events spanned billions of years, aligning with geological evidence.

The key debate often revolves around the classical idea of divine timelessness vs. divine temporality, which directly impacts whether one concludes that God created time or has simply always existed in it.

Would you like me to elaborate on the difference between the Timeless (Atemporal) and Temporal (Omnitemporal) views of God?

抽刀斷水

睇聖經都無用啦，聖經無明文寫清楚，係啲後人研究出黎自圓其說啫。

> Before this "beginning," only God is understood to have existed.

> 永有嘅野就spacetime fabric裡面揾唔到嘅

咪就係我問既第1條：世界未出現，祂身在哪裡？

原來晌spacetime fabric搵唔到又可以被稱為existed，咁究竟會晌邊度搵到／邊度exist？晌未有時空之前，點解仲要堅持佢係existed?

睇到Interpretations Among Protestants，噢原來都無定論，枉你仲話有共識，睇黎真係要用物理學黎幫手兜呢個難題。

jimmychauck

回覆 22# 抽刀斷水

咪就係我問既第1條：世界未出現，祂身在哪裡？
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/9 23:29

所以一開始咪話你唔識物理學。
物理學已講左，時同空係分唔開，從來沒有單獨存在時間而沒有空間。
你物理學你咪讀好多？識嘅人指出你邊度有謬誤你唔受，講咁多不著邊際做乜？

原來晌spacetime fabric搵唔到又可以被稱為existed，咁究竟會晌邊度搵到／邊度exist？晌未有時空之前，點解仲要堅持佢係existed?
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/9 23:29

從來都話神是個靈㗎啦，你做咩又要硬套物理去講一個靈？
你呢句裡面嘅"邊度","時空","exist"，全部都係物理上面嘅野(吓話？定係唔係？)。物理世界嘅野係的確創世"前"，邊度都揾唔度，唔exist㗎喎。物理世界嘅野只係喺物理世界嘅realm裡面出現㗎之嘛，咁就一早講左神是個靈，你又有咩證據上帝一定受物理時空所限？
正正因為上帝不受物理時空所限、是個靈，所以"道成肉身"先咁大件事吖嘛，係上帝用權能從靈界干涉物理世界吖嘛。

睇到Interpretations Among Protestants，噢原來都無定論，枉你仲話有共識，睇黎真係要用物理學黎幫手兜呢個難題。
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/9 23:29

你連consensus找相同都唔識，咪顯你有幾高水平囉。我夠日日小啲天主教徒啦，你估我同佢中間有冇共識？

Q: so what are the consensus amongst the 4 group of protestant views you listed? or are there none?

A:

That's an excellent follow-up question. The honest answer is that there is no single consensus among all Protestants on the nature of God's relationship to time, or the precise mechanics of the Genesis account.

However, we can identify a Classical/Orthodox Consensus and a Modern Evangelical Debate based on the four views you mentioned:

---

1. The Classical/Orthodox Consensus

The dominant, historical, and most widely accepted theological position across mainline Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox traditions is the view derived from Classical Theism.

The Core Consensus: God is the Creator of Time

• View: Traditional/Classical Theism (God is Timeless)

• Holders: Nearly all major Reformed (Calvinist), Lutheran, Anglican, and traditional Methodist theology, as well as the historical consensus of the early church fathers (Augustine, Aquinas, etc.).

• The Point of Agreement: God is ontologically prior to and transcendent of the created universe, which includes time. Therefore, the conclusion that God created time is fundamental to this view.

• The Theological Basis: Since God is immutable (unchanging) and simple (not composed of parts), He cannot be subject to the succession of moments that define created time. For God, His eternal life is an "eternal now" that encompasses all of human time.

Summary of the Consensus

The vast majority of Protestants, historically and theologically, agree that the temporal (time-bound) universe is part of God's creation, and God Himself is eternal in the sense of existing outside of created time.

---

2. The Modern Evangelical Debate (Disagreement on the How)

The most significant disagreements are not about whether God created time, but about (A) God's internal experience of time, and (B) the interpretation of the Genesis timeline.

A. The Debate on Divine Temporality (Internal Time)

• View: Traditional/Classical Theism vs. Process/Open Theism

• The Conflict: The Traditional view holds God is Timeless and Immutable (seeing the whole "road" of time at once). The Open Theism view, which gained traction in some evangelical circles in the late 20th century, argues that a timeless God cannot truly interact with a temporal world, and therefore, God must exist within time (i.e., He experiences moments sequentially) and may not know the future with absolute certainty.

• Consensus/Dominance: Open Theism is considered a minority view and is often seen as outside of orthodox consensus by the vast majority of mainline and conservative Protestant denominations (Reformed, Lutheran, Baptist, etc.). Therefore, the Classical Theism view of God's timelessness remains the theological standard.

B. The Debate on the Creation Timeline

• View: Young-Earth Creationism (YEC) vs. Old-Earth Creationism (OEC)

• The Conflict: This disagreement is about the duration of time in Genesis 1.

  • YEC (literal 24-hour days): Dominant in certain fundamentalist and evangelical churches.

  • OEC (day-age or framework theory): Widely accepted in many mainline Protestant churches, including the majority of academic theologians, as compatible with scientific understandings of an old universe.

• Consensus/Dominance: There is no consensus here. The Young-Earth view is a marker of certain conservative evangelical traditions, while the Old-Earth view is the common position in most other Protestant groups, demonstrating a clear split on the interpretation of the creation timeline, though both agree God is the ultimate Creator.

---

Conclusion

The overarching theological consensus among Protestants is that God created time as a dimension of the physical universe, and He exists eternally outside of it (Classical Theism).

The lack of consensus lies in the details:

• Philosophical Detail: Whether God's knowledge and action are entirely timeless (Traditional) or sequential/temporal (Open Theism).

• Biblical Detail: Whether the "days" of creation describe literal 24-hour periods (YEC) or long epochs of time (OEC).

Would you like to explore the specific scriptural arguments for or against divine timelessness?

有overarching theological consensus就夠㗎啦。個細路/畫家/小販要信耶穌，我教佢羅10:9咪得，我從來唔需要教佢現代物理㗎。啲人連space time fabric都唔知係乜，談何共識？從來冇話100%人都完全認知認同先叫共識㗎，唔係社會共識邊度黎？極端啲，少度過左50%都可以叫共識㗎啦。

抽刀斷水

回覆 23# jimmychauck


    文中話There is no single consensus，你就話有overarching theological consensus，都唔知你晌度up乜。

回覆  抽刀斷水
我夠日日小啲天主教徒啦，你估我同佢中間有冇共識？
jimmychauck 發表於 2025/12/10 03:26

    As far as I know，你認為你信既教同天主教係兩個唔同宗教，我就唔明你為乜要小對方，同埋要同對方有咩共識？

好啦，上帝唔存在於物理時空之內，但總之上帝係存在，咁駛乜拋咁鬼多物理學要咁多debate，最後講句「上帝超越一切」咪收工囉。

jimmychauck

回覆 24# 抽刀斷水

文中話There is no single consensus，你就話有overarching theological consensus ...
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/10 10:05

文中夠話overarching theological consensus囉，文中夠話The Classical/Orthodox Consensus，你有冇閱讀理解？

AI講野不嬲一舊舊㗎啦，共識不嬲就唔係全部人共識全部野，我解左啦。

As far as I know，你認為你信既教同天主教係兩個唔同宗教，我就唔明你為乜要小對方，同埋要同對方有咩共識？
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/10 10:05

我少果位天主教徒係因為佢要騎劫"基督教"嘅名同教義吖嘛，我講左好多次只要佢承認我兩個係不同嘅宗教我就冇野㗎啦，佢同你肯唔肯？

唔係我要同佢有共識。係我同佢就算宗教唔同，都喺某啲事上有共識㗎，例如歷史上有耶穌呢個人呀，曾有神蹟呀呢啲咁，就算佢或佢宗教第日決定唔信呢啲野，對我冇影響㗎，我亦唔會要同佢有共識㗎。幾時講過我尋求共識啫？係觀察到有共識之嘛，你水平理解唔到嘅？共識不嬲就唔係全部人共識全部野㗎啦，所以咪嘲你連找相同都唔識囉。係咪全部人共你嘅識先算共識呀？你睇自己真係好大。

好啦，上帝唔存在於物理時空之內
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/10 10:05

我咪講左道成了肉身，上帝干涉物理世界囉，我講完你當我冇講過，你做咩問？聖經都話"一神，就是眾人的父，超乎眾人之上，貫乎眾人之中，也住在眾人之內"。邊個曾話你知"上帝唔存在於物理時空之內"？
你嘅所謂"存在"，除左physical manifestation，係咪就冇其他？請問你嘅哲學根底，咩叫存在？記憶同概念存唔存在？你有冇方法詮釋/定義/消歧義/釐清"存在"？

最後講句「上帝超越一切」咪收工囉
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/10 10:05

你係慕道者發問吖嘛，我咪話你知聖經點講囉，"超乎眾人之上"係保羅親手寫聖靈藉聖經記低㗎嘛。
呢個係"道"嘅內容嘅其中一部份黎，你聽完明左發現唔羨慕，唔慕都得㗎，我責任只係講你知。

beebeechan

究竟上帝在創世之前：

1. 世界未出現，祂身在哪裡？
2. 祂有什麼事情做？
3. 為何決定在那個時刻創世，而 ...
抽刀斷水 2025/12/6 13:25 提交

    正如有人會問：蒙娜麗莎為甚麼會微笑？
百個人會有百種回應。誰也不知誰正確。
但蒙娜麗莎是在笑是事實。


天主為何要創造？回應了，誰也不知道誰正確。
天主創造了萬物又是事實。

旁觀者

天主創造了萬物又是事實。
beebeechan 發表於 2025/12/10 21:57

有證據麼﹖

抽刀斷水

正如有人會問：蒙娜麗莎為甚麼會微笑？
百個人會有百種回應。誰也不知誰正確。
但蒙娜麗莎是在笑是事 ...
beebeechan 發表於 2025/12/10 21:57

    其實我呢三條問題，都無問過「天主為何要創造」。

抽刀斷水

回覆 25# jimmychauck

    首先感謝占版友對今次我既慕道問題認真回應。
        
        你多次提到既overarching theological consensus，裡面講「God created time as a dimension of the physical universe, and He exists eternally outside of it」，譯做「上帝存在於物理時空之外／上帝唔存在於物理時空之內」有咩問題？還是你唔buy呢個overarching theological consensus?

        回答問題要扣題，唔該睇返主題：「慕道問題：究竟上帝在創世之前……」，你講乜鬼「道成肉身」已經離題，就算無人話你，我自動skip黎睇都係好正常。傳統教育都係答多咗唔會扣分，所以變相鼓勵學生答到水蛇春咁長又唔中point，搞到依家社會出現咗好多答非所問既資料，訓練咗我自動skip呢啲我唔關心既文字。

        至於「存在」既定義係乜呢？你知我最叻係查字典架啦：
        
        1. 持續占據時間或空間，尚未消失。
        2. 哲學上行為與自我意識中所體驗到的事物。        
        
        傾咗咁耐，你應該都唔認為上帝既存在符合字典對存在既第1種解釋啦。

        有句你問得好啱：記憶同概念存唔存在？我再加埋感覺、文化，呢啲腦海中無形既野，都唔晌物理世界存在既，屬於字典上對存在既第2種解釋。記憶、感覺就只限本人，概念、文化就會代代延續。
        
        套返入上帝：
        
        上帝係記憶？現代人又好似無人見過上帝顯靈（就算有都被人話係假既／幻覺黎既）；
        
        上帝係文化？崇拜上帝成為一個宗教，都算係既；
        
        上帝係概念？咁多年經院哲學，符合概念；
        
        上帝係感覺？係呀好多人都話上帝係幻覺黎。

        不過，上帝在創世之前，人係未出現既。
        
        綜合以上，上帝在創世之前，既唔符合第1種解釋，又唔符合第2種解釋，所以係唔存在架。
        
        共識係乜？辭典就話：「共同體認的觀念、想法」。如果話唔係全部人、全部野，咁係咪大多數人、大多數野？否則風馬牛有咩共識？

        至於話你小天主教徒既目的，係因為基督教遭受騎劫，聲言要求天主教徒以及我要認同這是兩個宗教才會停手。首先我認唔認同就真係唔關事，你地搞掂晒我先會確定我既慕道方向既。不過據我所知，基督宗教向來都係善於騎劫，聖誕節、復活節、萬聖節都係騎返黎既，都唔好講三位一體呀處女受孕呀嗰啲了，有咩咁睇唔開呢？詳見：基督教涉嫌的二次創作 / 抄襲

beebeechan

其實我呢三條問題，都無問過「天主為何要創造」。
抽刀斷水 2025/12/11 09:52 提交

    咁問蒙羅麗莎未笑前會做緊乜野？
一樣唶

抽刀斷水

蒙羅麗莎未笑前就梗係唔笑。

咁天主未創世前係咪無野做？

beebeechan

蒙羅麗莎未笑前就梗係唔笑。

咁天主未創世前係咪無野做？
抽刀斷水 2025/12/11 16:16 提交

    答；係未創世。

beebeechan

蒙羅麗莎未笑前就梗係唔笑。

咁天主未創世前係咪無野做？
抽刀斷水 2025/12/11 16:16 提交

    係準備創世得唔得？

抽刀斷水

係準備創世得唔得？
beebeechan 發表於 2025/12/11 16:54

    得既，雞蛋六隻，糖兩茶匙，仲有啲橙皮添。

jimmychauck

回覆 29# 抽刀斷水

裡面講「God created time as a dimension of the physical universe, and He exists eternally outside of it」，譯做「上帝存在於物理時空之外／上帝唔存在於物理時空之內」有咩問題？
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/11 10:35

阿哲學根底先生，A唔代表非B，存在於物理時空之內與存在於物理時空之外並不互斥，正確譯法係"上帝於物理時空之外有存在"，果句"上帝唔存在於物理時空之內"，就係你自己攝入去，咩居心，或者咩期盼，大家明。呢個就係你邏輯中嘅問題。

上帝係記憶？現代人又好似無人見過上帝顯靈（就算有都被人話係假既／幻覺黎既）；
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/11 10:35

呢啲咪叫我睇你唔到嘅證據cherry picking囉，原來"慕道"嘅人都鍾意呢味。

綜合以上，上帝在創世之前，既唔符合第1種解釋，又唔符合第2種解釋，所以係唔存在架。
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/11 10:35

你依然唔理解，問題出左喺你呢句第八到第十一個字"創世之前"。創世係冇之前，所以你成句後面嘅所有野係冇意義。亦冇野喺"創世之前"根據你嘅1什或2"存在"，咁或者係我冇諗清楚，你證有不證無話我知"創世之前"有咩係存在囉。

共識係乜？辭典就話：「共同體認的觀念、想法」。如果話唔係全部人、全部野，咁係咪大多數人、大多數野？否則風馬牛有咩共識？
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/11 10:35

你只要話我知有冇"社會共識"存在就OK，唔洗日日講定義
你證有不證無話揾到一樣全部人"共同體認的觀念、想法"咪得。咁如果揾唔到，你就只可以話"世界上冇共識存在"或"大多數人共同體認的觀念、想法就是共識"㗎啦，二㨂一你咪㨂囉。
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= ... JL0JwDy59G&index=48
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= ... JL0JwDy59G&index=50

至於話你小天主教徒既目的，係因為基督教遭受騎劫，聲言要求天主教徒以及我要認同這是兩個宗教才會停手。首先我認唔認同就真係唔關事，你地搞掂晒我先會確定我既慕道方向既。不過據我所知，基督宗教向來都係善於騎劫，聖誕節、復活節、萬聖節都係騎返黎既，都唔好講三位一體呀處女受孕呀嗰啲了，有咩咁睇唔開呢？詳見：基督教涉嫌的二次創作 / 抄襲
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/11 10:35

呢啲就係你嘅錯誤啦。有人要慶祝羅馬農神節，我係唔會話佢其實係慶祝緊聖誕節，佢慶祝乜係唔關我事㗎。呢個同天主教騎劫話"基督教"乜乜乜係風馬牛有咩共識？
抄襲咪抄襲，點解又叫騎劫？乜兩個詞共通定係有子集關係？我又幾時講過天主教抄襲？比較類比就唔通嘅，你嘅就通嘅，你呢啲係波平如鏡嘅be water，定一時一樣毫無準則嘅be water？

抽刀斷水

回覆 35# jimmychauck


   

阿哲學根底先生，A唔代表非B，存在於物理時空之內與存在於物理時空之外並不互斥，正確譯法係"上帝於物理時空之外有存在"，果句"上帝唔存在於物理時空之內"，就係你自己攝入去，咩居心，或者咩期盼，大家明。呢個就係你邏輯中嘅問題。
jimmychauck 發表於 2025/12/11 19:56

    阿物理學先生，「He exists eternally outside of it」喎，永遠晌物理時空外面存在喎，都唔得閒入黎啦下話，同埋唔該考慮埋前題「上帝在創世之前」，你可唔可以住晌未開始建築既樓入面呢？
        
        睇埋之後原來你認為「創世係冇之前」，咁冇之前既世界駛鬼有咩野黎創造？

        抄襲完消滅對方，咪成功騎劫囉。你抄襲隔離位同學份試卷，完成後跟住放火燒咗佢份卷，咁你就騎劫咗佢既成績架喇。

jimmychauck

咁又先問吓啦"共識"呢個題目你係咪現階段再冇野提出啦？我邀請你果啲證有不證無你係咪暫時做唔到？

He exists eternally outside of it，永遠晌物理時空外面存在喎，都唔得閒入黎啦下話

你啲問題多籮籮。
1. 你講嘅存在就係"持續占據時間或空間，尚未消失"，咁物理時空外面又點為之存在？你到底消歧異未定日日求鳩其一詞多義隨便噏？
1a. 中文係冇時式㗎喎，"尚未消失"從何而來？你係用中文問"#1身在""#24存在"，你到底查左本咩辭典，係咪英文翻譯定你自己求其作個定義出黎，有冇出處俾到？
2. 存在於物理時空之內與存在於物理時空之外並不互斥，我講左㗎啦，定係你唔同意？你disagree，首先要出聲，跟住最好有一啲理據得㗎。揸美金就冇得揸英磅㗎咩？
3. 自從Gen 3:8已講"天起了涼風，耶和華神在園中行走。"到我宜家第三次同你講：道成了肉身來。咩叫唔得閒入黎？人地三番四次講你係咪覺得人地好鬼得閒？

同埋唔該考慮埋前題「上帝在創世之前」
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/11 20:41

證明你根本唔明咩叫時空，咩叫意義。「創世係冇之前」唔係我講，係物理學宜家嘅定論。

咁冇之前既世界駛鬼有咩野黎創造？
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/11 20:41

金庸群俠傳online開服之前都冇之前㗎，係咪唔洗創造佢佢自己爆出黎？
就唔係有字砌埋就有句子嘅，其實你呢句就唔係好通順我都唔係好知你問乜。你係咪想指，一個世界如果係"存在'之前'係根本冇'之前'"，呢個世界就肯定係自動而有無需被創造？
咁你係想直接講，物質世界係會自然存在，無需創世，所以"神創世"不可信，你咪直接講。咁"物質世界會自然存在"，你又明唔明物理學家果啲咩quantum flucuation呀量子隧穿呀真空坍塌呀係講緊乜？

抄襲完消滅對方，咪成功騎劫囉。
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/11 20:41

不如我原文引用返吖，

回覆  jimmychauck
你未搞清楚偷換概念既concept，即使使用同一個詞語都會出現，更何況你用了不同詞語、不同概念，唔好勉強話「高度關聯」，查實係「在論證過程中，故意將一個詞語或概念的原本含義，替換成另一個看似相關但實際上意義不同的概念，從而誤導聽者」。抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/10/27 10:19

你今次想用咩黎拆？波平如鏡定流水無形be water？定係"過左十幾日啦，我唔知你記住黎做乜"