I travel across HK, Canada, and Mainland.  Half of my life thus far is in HK, another half is in Canada.  But my work involve a lot of traveling in Mainland.

================
It is a women who is going to have a baby.  Giving birth is decision 1) Raising the kids is decision number 2)  The common misconception is thinking that 1) will leads to 2)  When it is a always possible decision combination to give birth and abandon it.

For Tibet, the invasion is decision 1), the occupation is decision 2).  Historically speaking, unless you read only the Mainland history book, you will see clearly that Tibet is as much of part of China as Korea is.  They are both only a sidekick of the once formidable Chinese Empire.  The closest relation we get with them is on Yang dynasty and Ch'ing's dynasty.  But at neither time did we really have total control over them.  The view that Tibetian as part of Chinese is a new concept that only arise after Ch'ing's fall (and Sun campaign).

It should be clear that the initial taking of Tibet into China should be view as as invasion.  We deserve the name invader as much as liberator (actually, we are both)

HOWEVER, it does not follow that Tibet should seperate from China now (or China should end the occupation).  The reason is that priority should be given to the welfare of the people on the land.  Tibetian fare much better under Communist China than a Depotist Dela Lama.  Not only is the economic condition better, people are also more "equal" under Communist rule than the Feudal government!  

If China quit the occupation, where will the Hans that is currently living on the land goes?   How much of a chaos it will cause with new currency, new diplomatic relationship, and a ultra-sour feeling between the two neighbours. (Chinese is very unlikely to be tolerant about the seperation,) Whatever the gain they believe people can get, this price tag is expensive.

Now suppose Chinese is truely trying to eliminate the culture of the Tibetian (which have been tried, I am not up todate with the current situation.)  

1) What is wrong with a cultural change?  The current Tibet's Budhism is an imported culture too!  If part of the culture is rottening, it should be advantagous to discard the part.  If the part of culture is so great, someone will see it, keep it, and even spread it.  Did not Budhism teaches that life is a flux?

2) Does it follow that people should use violence to solve the issue?  Have they tried all the peaceful venue?  (For example, get a PR campaign to tell everyone what is good about their culture?)  What have the saleswomen did to deserve death?  What will killing a couple of innocent civilians achieve?
---------------

For democracy, I do not believe 2 wrongs makes a right.  I believe people can and should look after each other's back.  

Hence, I believe a person DO NOT need to be "totally" democratic to critize another to be undemocratic.

I know I am at odds with the modern Chinese/American culture here.

Ouside:
- Canada have freedom of press (try visit wiki in China).  There is a communist party in Canada and no one is going to prosecute them.

- Canada have freedom of speech (There are not many sacred cow in Canada. watch TVB in Mainland should prove the point.)

- For Canada, the point of view is comparatively neutral (because it is an immigration country just like US.  Its national principle is multiculralism instead of assimiliation (US and China).  The latest soap I watch in China about sensely murdering Japanese will land a person in jail for promoting racism.  Typically you will be a Canadian if you live in Canada long enough but a blonde will be viewed as a Chinese no matter how long he lives in China.)

- Canada have a balance of power.  A horrible prime minister is not going to get very far.

- We have a reasonable potiential to participate in the government for everyone.  Nearly no one is left out.  (I never see my workers in China get a chance to participate in the government.  The babies born outside of the one child policy are like second class citizen.  BUT, it is slowly changing for the better these days.)
---------------

For filial piety in Bible, it is part of the Ten Commandment.

5) "Honor your Father and Mother"

Deuteronomy 5:16
16 Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
------------------

Last time after you told me about the prohibition of preaching in mainland, the next day I switch on the TV.. they are having a "witness" show on how real the Noah's Ark myth is. (IE preaching on TV in Guangzhou)

You don't need to believe me, but the law in China is great.  But not many respect it.
Above is me

回復 22# dye 的帖子

dye 兄你唔係話離開一排咩
花開花落花無缺!

對付教徒三式: 不主動、 不抗拒、 不負責!

回復 18# onlyaaaa 的帖子

我聽到的主要是香港批評外地傳媒未能直接進入採訪西藏,只能由中央發放訊息。那麼,是真是假也不得而知了。

台灣當然是指大陸鎮壓西藏,說台灣不要做香港第二、西藏第二。

外國嘛,很多都說西藏被血腥鎮壓了,當然亦由於傳媒沒有在西藏直接採訪,只能訪問境外異見人士了。
支持鼓勵每位離教者
原帖由 onlyaaaa 於 2008-3-24 15:10 發表
好累。。。这么多,我休息下。。
喝水去了。。。


sorry for driving thee so tired累 , please accept my sincere apology ,
---------
shouldst thou have not enough spare time ,
then ,
simply
n'o////no response to me !! n'o problem , not any
---------
by 'the way , thou hast written it very best , very detailedly , it does take me time to [[re]]digest ....
---------
cheers ThANK ye
exChristian.info前基督徒,主力:淚儿/泪儿,WEIYAN,龙井树。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。警告 基督徒:你们一定不够他们玩
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原帖由 dye 於 2008-3-25 01:01 發表
Above is me


ThANKs , thou art so sweet as swiss [[sweet]] , ,;--^), i'm reading thy works ,

c thee later 2day , cheers ThANKye

[ 本帖最後由 prussianz 於 2008-3-25 07:17 編輯 ]
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回復 24# 抽刀斷水 的帖子

Really?

According to BBC,

"2008年3月10日,拉萨藏人集会纪念1959年抗议中国统治失败事件,随后数日继续发生大规模抗议活动。后来骚乱出现,引起各方关注。 "

什麼"很多都說西藏被血腥鎮壓了"??

There seems to be no detail report from CBC about it.  All too typical of Canadian.

Nation Post (Canada's right wing newspaper) said most Canadian oppose to a boycott on the Olympic over it.

"Rioting erupted in a province neighbouring Tibet yesterday, two days after violent protests by Tibetans against Chinese rule in Lhasa in which the region's exiled representatives said 80 people had been killed."

-----------------
In terms of actual action:

German and US are both asking (politely?) for China to open up for an observer so that they can know what is going on.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-3-25 10:26 編輯 ]

回復 23# Step.King 的帖子

I said I will be busy for a while.

In fact I have been traveling around in Mainland a lot lately.

回復 27# dye 的帖子

翻譯問題?

BBC:西藏血腥鎮壓 加劇北京奧運創傷

http://udn.com/NEWS/WORLD/WORS1/4261317.shtml

在google查「西藏血腥」,都有很多。
支持鼓勵每位離教者

回復 29# 抽刀斷水 的帖子

The passage is directly from BBC, Chinese division.

在google查「西藏血腥」,都有很多, but internet is not representative of the populace.

Udn is a company from Mainland.  The Chinese government WANTS its populace to have paranoia (my personal opinion)

-----------------

Image from BBC on the troops



Fellow from Mainland probably do not see it.  However, it is about a child "welcoming" the army.  THIS, is how ouside see China.  
Is that how you would describe a massacre?

----------------------
It can be demonstrated again and again.  To keep in-group solidarity, it is best to tell people that the out-group hate us.  It has been the underlying causes of hatred and war.

US government like to tell their citizen that Chinese hate them.  Chinese did exactly the same.  Fortunately, US has free press.  The people I met from US takes CNN with a grain of salt.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-3-25 12:42 編輯 ]

回復 21# 的帖子

nice 2 meet u 遊客 221.125.57.x
i`m also a 遊客 used 2...
so welcome to here,and happy to talk with u(以下的文字我尽量用英文来锻炼我自己,不行的话我再用中文)
actually now the rioting is happening in SICHUAN SHENG and in GANSU
SHENG these days.they seems to wangtto go to  the BEIJING...
the things about TIBET(i much like use 西藏),i can guess the chinese gov why do that
1.through the all rioting, the chinese gov really no kill or beat  or the镇压anyone.他们只是控制,不让事情太过头。the army or the police much more like 打扫战场的(笑~)让你们去闹,让你们去做事情,知道没办法控制,而且控制了会更糟,(这样就可以真正的让别人说成镇压了。)i dont know all u here have seen the video about or not. really so many people there. after all is over, the gov start to his work中国政府现在就从道路监控录像里面找主要的嫌疑人来通缉。就是我前面说的秋后算账。首先在道义上站住脚,让人家说不到把柄。然后一个个来找你解决。你杀人了,你杀警察了,你挖警察屁股上的肉了。到了里面政府一个个慢慢来给你算。黑的来,不明来,来完了最后判个死刑。其实也不是政府弄你,是军队和警察的人在弄你,你弄我们的人弄的开心啊,打我们的时候打的这么开心。进去了就是你遭报应的时候了。
2the gov why not allow  to open up for an observer so that they can know what is going on.因为他怕你们进去了,然后你们在里面出事了,到时候国际上不好交代,治国无方,没办法保护好国际友人。还有一部分原因确实怕那些人乱说。
3不知道大家有没有看过天下无贼。。。里面有句话:人心散了。。。队伍不好带了。。现在中国人的心很混乱,不能让这样的事发生,如果真的独立了,后面事情会复杂很多了。(民间说法,政府中存在着2派,南派和北派,互相比实力,但是个人感觉,2派没事的时候会窝里斗斗,一出事,还是会联合起来的,所谓攘外必先安内。。。)另外一方面,就是杀鸡儆猴,给台湾看。我在内地看到一个帖子,
说他看凤凰卫视一个节目,里面说是中国政府通过使馆向其他国家发照会了,一旦台湾独立,马上打!
还有,我对外国人关于这个事件的反应的我的看法,和游客兄的观点中几个我不同意的地方。。。下回继续。。。
不好意思。。要早睡。。明天6点半要起,有事情做
明天回来继续说。。。抹汗:

[ 本帖最後由 onlyaaaa 於 2008-3-25 22:20 編輯 ]

回復 31# onlyaaaa 的帖子

1) What kind of government would let its civilian to be burnt alive just so that it can "punish" dissendents?  Imcompetence?  Or down right evil?

Is that not thinking too low of Communist China?

Least you do not realize, suppressing a riot is not a crime in international community.   A peaceful demonstration is vastly different from a riot.  I rather prefer to belive that they are unprepared for the event (intelligence failure).

2) Having a riot is one sign of incompetence.  Not able to control is second.  Unable to protect independent observer is third.  Do we need a fourth?

International community will understand if the obersers get killed by the rioter if reasonable measure is taken by the host.  Being a reporter in a riot has risk, they sign up for it.  If they do not want the risk, they can always quit by themselves. (Are they going to ban bungee jump too because it is risky?)

Interesting thing is, the exile of the observer is immediately follow by tighter censorship about the topic in China.  If you have not leave China so far, you can only see what they want you to see...

3) If Taiwan gain independence (which it already has de facto), China would fight a war.  Where is the talk about brotherhood of the same nation?  You kill your brother for his independence?  If you are a Taiwanese, would you be as cool when they kill your family?  What happen to the Golden Rule of the once great Chinese culture?

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-3-26 00:12 編輯 ]
>unprepared for the event (intelligence failure).

此其一
其二是一個很簡單的問題,就是要是軍隊很難實行鎮壓而不傷害場內無辜的平民
(其實中國對暴動準備始終是不足的,而反過來,要是開坦克鎮壓的話,不止耐不住會被全世界發現,而且子彈不會長眼,對於拉薩市平民的後果會很嚴重)
所以比較方便的方法是疏散還沒有波及而在暴動範圍內的平民,然後徹底封鎖現場。

>Having a riot is one sign of incompetence.

這種事情每年在歐洲足總賽後都會上演一次
當然,這種有組織地攻擊特定平民目標的riot能發生倒是種失敗

> Not able to control is second.  

發生了之後,再控制一向都是極為困難
尤其暴動者一開始就混在受害者中
還有,這些可是連防暴警察都會打扁的傢伙

>Unable to protect independent observer is third.

問題就是
要是在以色列發生的話,所有人都會不明不白的指向巴勒斯坦人
而在中國發生的話,無論是不是軍警開鎗,他們都會說是軍警殺的
(而記者為了新聞,往往就是往最容易死掉的地方跑的)


最有趣的是,德國一開始就影下尼泊爾警察虐待藏民的片子聲稱是中國公安所為
(連制服和膚色都不同)
而CNN最早亦借同一片報導。
這在於任何國家而言,都不算是很禮貌的開放請求。
原帖由 onlyaaaa 於 2008-3-25 22:18 發表
nice 2 meet u 遊客 221.125.57.x
i`m also a 遊客 used 2...
so welcome to here,and happy to talk with u(以下的文字我尽量用英文来锻炼我自己,不行的话我再用中文)
actually now the rioting is happening  ...


>>>>>>>>> (以下的文字我尽量用英文来锻炼我自己,不行的话我再用中文)

好,有前途
好有前途, , marvel , bravo
exChristian.info前基督徒,主力:淚儿/泪儿,WEIYAN,龙井树。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。警告 基督徒:你们一定不够他们玩
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>How much of a chaos it will cause with new currency, new diplomatic relationship, and a ultra-sour feeling between the two neighbours. (Chinese is very unlikely to be tolerant about the seperation,) Whatever the gain they believe people can get, this price tag is expensive.

其實要是西藏新彊兩個地方跑掉的話
錢中原人是賺了
怕的只是一中國會搞成前蘇聯一樣
二是俄國和印度的軍隊(失去了喜瑪拉雅山脈的保障,任何對於中國資源虎視眈眈的政權都可以從西藏進入青海攻擊。)
到底,首先蝕底的仍然是西藏人自己。
(所以他們說藏民一般根本就不想獨立,其實倒是很有此可能)

>1) What is wrong with a cultural change?  The current Tibet's Budhism is an imported culture too!  If part of the culture is rottening, it should be advantagous to discard the part.  If the part of culture is so great, someone will see it, keep it, and even spread it.  Did not Budhism teaches that life is a flux?

世界任何國家都會經歷這些步驟的。
多點時間吧。
正如加州人和波士頓人會堆到唐人街飲茶一樣
要是藏文化真的有那麼好康
五十年之後我們或者會通通穿藏服也說不定。
(旗袍不就在民國都仍然流行了?)

>- Canada have freedom of press (try visit wiki in China).  There is a communist party in Canada and no one is going to prosecute them.

其實美國是試過的。
而共和黨那種教會的政客現在仍在試著回到那個時代。

>- Canada have freedom of speech (There are not many sacred cow in Canada. watch TVB in Mainland should prove the point.)

美國南部到現在都仍然是沒有的。
你當街說你是無神論者的話
你同樣會被射成蜂窩而沒有人會替你報警

>- For Canada, the point of view is comparatively neutral

同上,這是花了百年時間的成果。

>- Canada have a balance of power.  A horrible prime minister is not going to get very far.

抱歉,在美國,教會有足夠的時間當政令伊拉克合計死亡兩百萬人。
... 毫無意義地
(要是死那麼多是有錢賺回來的話,我還不會加教會兩個字上去)

>- We have a reasonable potiential to participate in the government for everyone.  Nearly no one is left out.  

同樣錯
美國是不可能出一位華人,或,黑人,或女人總統的(今次大選也不會)
加拿大同樣不會 - 即令另外的選擇可能是希特勒或者是世界大戰。

>the next day I switch on the TV.. they are having a "witness" show on how real the Noah's Ark myth is. (IE preaching on TV in Guangzhou)

所以我才說中國何止百年國難。

>You don't need to believe me, but the law in China is great.  But not many respect it.

同樣,當宗教有需要的時候
無論是美國還是加拿大,都不見得他們很尊重自己的憲法。
原帖由 Nomad 於 2008-3-26 05:46 發表
>unprepared for the event (intelligence failure).

此其一
其二是一個很簡單的問題,就是要是軍隊很難實行鎮壓而不傷害場內無辜的平民
(其實中國對暴動準備始終是不足的,而反過來,要是開坦克鎮壓的話,不止耐不住會 ...

最有趣的是,德國一開始就影下尼泊爾警察虐待藏民的片子聲稱是中國公安所為
(連制服和膚色都不同)
而CNN最早亦借同一片報導。
這在於任何國家而言,都不算是很禮貌的開放請求。


,;--^)), ThANKs 4 unique insight , which i have missed
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原帖由 Nomad 於 2008-3-26 06:11 發表
>How much of a chaos it will cause with new currency, new diplomatic relationship, and a ultra-sour feeling between the two neighbours. (Chinese is very unlikely to be tolerant about the seperation,)  ...
>How much of a chaos it will cause with new currency, new diplomatic relationship, and a ultra-sour feeling between the two neighbours. (Chinese is very unlikely to be tolerant about the seperation,) Whatever the gain they believe people can get, this price tag is expensive.

其實要是西藏新彊兩個地方跑掉的話
錢中原人是賺了
怕的只是一中國會搞成前蘇聯一樣
二是俄國和印度的軍隊(失去了喜瑪拉雅山脈的保障,任何對於中國資源虎視眈眈的政權都可以從西藏進入青海攻擊。)
到底,首先蝕底的仍然是西藏人自己。
(所以他們說藏民一般根本就不想獨立,其實倒是很有此可能)


>>>> 其實要是西藏新彊兩個地方跑掉的話
>>>> 錢中原人是賺了
sorry , i un-understood 'the red sentence , ThANKing4teaching
---------
>>>> 怕的只是一中國會搞成前蘇聯一樣 ,
completly completely agree  
---------
>>>> 二
>>>> 是俄國和印度的軍隊(失去了喜瑪拉雅山脈的保障,
>>>> 任何對於中國資源虎視眈眈的政權都可以從西藏進入青海攻擊。)
completly completely agree x 2
---------
(所以他們說藏民一般根本就不想獨立,其實倒是很有此可能)
sorry , this time not agree ,
--
according 'the camera shots ,
@ this time ,
even
'the monks +
'the ladies did stand out + led 'the gangsters to stand against again
---------
n'o matter what-ever , many a ThANKye ,

[ 本帖最後由 prussianz 於 2008-3-26 06:24 編輯 ]
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>- We have a reasonable potiential to participate in the government for everyone.  Nearly no one is left out.  

同樣錯
美國是不可能出一位華人,或,黑人,或女人總統的(今次大選也不會)
加拿大同樣不會 - 即令另外的選擇可能是希特勒或者是世界大戰。


couldest thou bet on that ??  
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>according 'the camera shots ,
>@ this time ,
>even
>'the monks +
>'the ladies did stand out + led 'the gangsters to stand against again

始終都是那問題,那佔拉薩當中的多少人?
要是真的那麼多人那麼嚴重的要獨立的話,恐怕早就像巴勒斯坦一樣了。

>couldest thou bet on that ??

賭多少?

另,特別賭注五千元美金
「共和黨再上場的話五年內會發生核戰。」
實現的話我贏。
>錢中原人是賺了
>sorry , i un-understood 'the red sentence ,

其實現下西藏(尤其拉薩市)是靠中原和岸口都市的資金和技術發展的
但是始終物流極不方便,所以要靠青鐵和解放軍運物資
要是藏獨的話,解放軍大可省回運物資的消耗
口岸都市又可以徹資省錢,不用千里昭昭去老遠搞基建
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