dye

In practical situation, for example, what treatment should I get when I am sick:

一、不因為他人的口傳、傳說，就信以為真。
Like your doctor refering you to a specialist.

二、不因為奉行傳統，就信以為真。
Like the doctor follow the common practise of the hospital.  (Such as washing hands before surgery)

三、不因為是正在流傳的消息，就信以為真。
Like the doctor follow the common knowledge of medicine  For example, the bateria theory.

四、不因為是宗教經典書本，就信以為真。
Like the doctor follow his medical reference.

五、不因為根據邏輯，就信以為真。
Like the doctor examination and interpretation of the patient.

六、不因為根據哲理，就信以為真。
Like the doctor's ethic in medical practise such as the disclosure of your information to you.

七、不因為符合常識外在推理，就信以為真。
Like the doctor belief in somthing counter-intuitive, such as evolution theory.

八、不因為符合自己的預測、見解、觀念，就信以為真。
Like the doctor found cases after cases of patient with 'expected' result of getting better

九、不因為演說者的威信，就信以為真。
Like the doctor's authority

十、不因為他是導師、大師，就信以為真。
Like the doctor academic standing

一切都要經過自己智慧的思考，甚至面對至尊自己的話也應如此。
Instead, try to think of a remedies by yourself.

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Try to think of it, there is 3 categories

a) 他人的口傳、傳說 (66% of the world do not believe in Christianity)
b) 奉行傳統 (Like Enlightment tradition of doubting)
c) 正在流傳的消息 (Like Evolution Theory)
d) 是宗教經典書本 (no Christian I know of believe in Christianity merely because it is a religious text.  Otherwise, they will believe in Islam with Koran.)

Why is it they are saying it if it is false?  What is the odds that I am not intelligent enough to understand the underlying reason compare to they are ALL wrong?

e) 根據邏輯 (Christianity is self contradictory)
f) 根據哲理
g) 符合常識外在推理 (We can induce by the marking of sea level with various technique to know Noah flood did not happen)
h) 符合自己的預測、見解、觀念 (Double blind prayer experiment show it has no effect)

What should thinking base on without all these objectivity?  Common sense?  Divine relevation (Hullucation)?

i) 演說者的威信 (Scientist in general do not believe in Christianity)
j) 他是導師、大師 (The academia is filled with non-believer)

If I am not a doctor, what is the odd that the specialist is correct and I am wrong in medical question?  Do the "holy water" priest  or the 'spiritual healing' therapist have the same weight over a medical doctor opinon on health?

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One of the problem is that time keeps flowing regardless of what we are doing.  If we hesitate, we have already pick the choice of "do nothing".

Time, is pushing us to make a decision.  We can only make choice base on probability.

dye

a, b, c, d, i, j have the same problem:  Without complete knowledge of the underlying observation behind what people said/write, it is impossible to know if it is true or not.

HOWEVER, there is a difference between WHO said/write it.  
Chance is high that what parents tell their kids to do is beneficial to the kids.  
Chance is high that what the doctor tells their patients to do is more intelligent than a serpent handling priest.

It is faith in people (certain people depending on topic).  As no one is all knowing, we have to stick togather and let the others be our 'eyes' and 'ear'.  

The real wisedom is WHO should we trust at a particular situation? (Which will draw us to e, f, g, h)
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e,f,g,h is pretty much science or objectivity in thinking.  

Aristotle can meditate all he likes in a cave but it is too easy to go astray without experiments by Gallileo with a ball.

When the snake-oil salesman medicine keep failing, it does tell us something about the oil, if not the salesman too!

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-4-22 09:35 編輯 ]

dye

What I mean is something I study in 'Industrial Managment', something handy when managing a factory of any sort.

Just like Budha, perhaps it is best by illustrating rather than explaining in words, eh?

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For example, while we are thinking of which medical treatment to take, by say studying, we have chosen to do nothing to our illness.

Time has never stop while we are busy 'figuring it out'.  In an engineering situation: while we are thinking of a way to build a dam, the village is already flooded (and life lost).  A little mud dam is better than no dam.

When building a bridge, engineer knows it will break apart with a range of probability.  However, building it is still better than waiting and thinking until a perfect bridge can be built. Because as we wait for the perfect bridge, no one can cross the river and people on both side will suffer the hardship.

If the factory is on fire, and you are offered 3 choices
a) Do nothing
b) Run away
c) Try the extinguisher

People who think too long/too much has already choose a) as time passed.  Instead, bravely taking either b) or c) based on an immeidate/probabistic evaluation can be a solution.

The motto of engineers "With unlimited resources and time, anything is possible.  But since we have neither, we will have to decide." (And it is one of the core meaning of 'engineering')  
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And so the Budha compare our current life to a person getting shot by a poisonous arrow.  

He also knows the urgency of the choice.  Sitting and thinking too much with an arrow sticking on our flesh) will eventually/quickly lead to death.

There is only 70 years of life.  If we take out the time of performing neccessity of living, not much time is left for thinking.  Perhaps that is why monks live a simple life to decrease the neccessity.
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Double blind prayer experiment is an experiment setup by scientist to test the effect of prayer on patient.

The conclusion is obvious: prayer has no (physical) effect.

The joke is that if prayer has any effect, the Royal family of UK is often pray to 'long live'.  Yet the Royal family show no exception in the life expectancy.

dye

Here is from The Kalama Sutta,  the sutta you refer to as "原始佛典"

"The Four Solaces"

"The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom four solaces are found here and now.

"'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.

"'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him.

"'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him.

"'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him.

"The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found."

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See how Buddha advice on taking decision without 'full knowledge'.

dye

For physical sickness hidden in the body,
a) There is a yearly examination.  Check for breast cancer, woman.

b) Following the principle behind Buddha, get a vacination (See P10)  Get an insurance if you are worry about the economic consequences.  

c) Ask you family doctor about it.

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For physical sickness not hidden,

a) See a licenced doctor, get a few doctors and specialist if you have it is a me doubt (narrowing the probability curve by taking a larger sample).  This is a normal trick if you are testing for AIDS.

You are always welcome to ask medical advice from your family doctor.  This will be the next step in our medical system in HK. (as it is already used in other more medically advanced countries)

b) Become a doctor if you have that kind of resource and time

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If it is a mental illness, I do not see a way out.

a) Get a doctor of the field.  Get a few if you have doubt to narraow down the probability.

b) Become a doctor if you can still manage

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As I said, WHO said it matter.  Before believing the words of the priest, check out his performance on e, f, g, h.  A typical Christian priest will fail immediately on h) as there is no Adam and Eves according evidence for Theory of Evolution.

e) 根據邏輯 (Any logic in his analysis?)
f) 根據哲理 (Does he has a record ethic?)
g) 符合常識外在推理 (What is his underlying induction?)
h) 符合自己的預測、見解、觀念 (What is the underlying experimental result?)

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-4-22 11:14 編輯 ]

dye

If any treatment work, they will pass through the clinical trial required.  Quite a number of Chinese medicine has pass through the test.  The major weakness of Chinese medicine as I remember is that fact that they are poisonous in a long run (that is, the medicine will accumulate in you and kills you in the end).  It is a reasonable result for a medical field that is developed without vigorous scientific observation.

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Science is base on observation, not ideology.  If there is any substance in the medical claim, there are many medical journal to submit a paper.

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Read on Economic Journal from a medical specialist about how various medicine work, you will quickly be facinated by how many tactic is employed by modern medicine.

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Doctor only tell people about the effect of weed, what the public decided to do about it is politics.  (That is, the banning of it is politics; the effect of weed is scientific question, not merely an opinion)

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If your hypothesis is "由於多國禁止吸食大麻，導致很多人精神因而無法宣洩而產生精神病", you may wish to demonstrate the point scientifically.  Or at least statistically first.

Is there more people with mental sickness in US, China, HK, etc, as compare to Netherland?

Clinically, we can have subjects with mental illness taking weed and check the effect afterward.

Or, if the effect you claim is preventive, we can study groups in the society who takes weed compare with those that do not and compare their mental health.

From evidence collected at this moment in time, smoking of weed is positively correlated to mental illness.
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PS Medical circle KNOW about the placebo effect.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-4-22 15:06 編輯 ]

dye

Incorrect the study only show that when you think someone is praying for you, your health is worst.  Whether the person is praying for you does not matter. (They split the group to 4)

The actually praying has no effect whatsoever.

It only further the point of psychological effect have on people.  When you know someone is praying for you, it stresses you out.
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The key problem in here is not that the Christian is lying, but that fact that we, as human, have limited natural mathematic ability.

We only improve this ability after education and be able to see the faulty thinking.

dye

It prove exactly Richard Dawkins point that pseudo-science user reject science when it contradicts their claim

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“Double blind prayer experiment ”，這種實驗毫無意義。心靈的力量是現代科學難以證明的，我絲毫不低估基督徒祈禱的力量。

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But jump quickly to science when it has any hints that suuport their claim

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當然，反效果也是效果，這不正說明了心靈的力量嗎？有反效果當然也有正效果，只不過在基教中萬里挑一。

dye

You are taking a psychological influence to be spiritual?  That is different.

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Consider the typial con-artist game, if this is spiritual, I am an Angel.

A 'doctor' is administrating you a bottle of water. (One of the 'alternate medicine popular in UK)
You drink it believing it is medicine.
You feel your sickness is heal afterward.

OR

A Benny Hinn is telling you that God is going to heal your asthma.
You believe him
You feel your sickness is heal afterward.

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Do you realize that the person do not need to be prayed for to have the effect?

In any case, playing with placebo is part of medical treatment too.  Only that science tells people the limitation of the technique.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-4-22 16:06 編輯 ]

dye

I look at his website.  I look at the section concerning vaccination and go "This is bull"

Vaccination (as a technique) works.  It is proven by numerous experiment and field works.  If he disagrees, please try to learn about it first.

If he still disagree, I suggest he publish a paper on medical journal and get the next Nobel Prize/Shaw Award.

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For example, 病毒打进了人体之后是否真的会产生抗体？
It can be demonstrated by vacination and a blood test afterward.

产生了之后是否真的可以日后防病？
Same as above.

即使可以，有效多久？
Same as above.

dye

a) There is a post marketing safety survellience.  No such mechanism is known for Chinese medicine for such a long time.  In mordern medicine, they know about the side effect.

b) Chinese medicine also have branches that deal with emergency.  They have fascinating drug to stop bleeding if you servere your arm (Yun Nan Bai Yau).  

c) If it is modern medicine, someone do know where and how it is made.  It has a manufacturing address, code, and a scientific method.  It has enough information to let you trace back to which batch (whenever you need to know)  Typically on a mordern medicine (besides the code and manufacturer's name)



For Chinese medicine, it depends on which medicine and what company you are buying from. (Typically how it looks like when it is sold, do you have the slightest idea where it is made?)



d) For economic incentive, both are similiar.  At least mordern medicine manufacturer has a reputation to keep, it will give them some incentive to think long term, Chinese medicine are mostly collected some unknown fellow...  If everything depends on a single person ability, and a person only live for 70years (30 years of practise), the person incentive will only be 30 years.  Wheras a company has infinite lifetime, its incentive will be forever at a decreasing rate as risk demolish it.

When mordern medicine causes a side effect, you complain and turn to alternative.  When Chinese medicine causes a side effect, you go to a hospital.

When Chinese medicine goes through the scientific trial and demonstrate it works, it becomes part of mordern medicine (some already has).  When they fail, they remain to be.. Chinese medicine.

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Don't be mistaken, quite a number of Chinese medicine is not 'herbal' at all.  They are animals (or parts of an animal)

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2008-4-23 09:26 編輯 ]