dye

http://family.custhelp.com/cgi-b ... adp.php?p_faqid=937

So, what should parents say to their kids about this subject? My advice is to say nothing after puberty has occurred. You will only cause embarrassment and discomfort. For those who are younger, it would be wise to include the subject of masturbation in the "Preparing for Adolescence" conversation I have recommended on other occasions. I would suggest that parents talk to their 12- or 13-year-old boys, especially, in the same general way my mother and father discussed this subject with me. We were riding in the car, and my dad said, "Jim, when I was a boy, I worried so much about masturbation. It really became a scary thing for me because I thought God was condemning me for what I couldn't help. So I'm telling you now that I hope you don't feel the need to engage in this act when you reach the teen years, but if you do, you shouldn't be too concerned about it. I don't believe it has much to do with your relationship with God."

http://www.themarriagebed.com/pages/bible/app/masturbation/masturbationnotcalledsin.shtml

W e have heard a lot of explanations of why masturbation is sin, but we have yet to have anyone give us a good explanation for why the Bible does not say it is. Is there any other sexual sin which is not directly and clearly identified as sin in the Bible? There are passages which clearly label as sin such things as fornication, adultery, lust, incest, rape, homosexuality, and even bestiality. Surely the urge to masturbate is more common than most of these, and much stronger than many of them, and yet the Bible says nothing about it. If God felt it necessary to tell us not to have sex with animals, why didn't He also find it necessary to tell us not to masturbate?

I can only come up with three reasons why "thou shalt not masturbate" is not found in the Bible:

• It's an oversight.
• One must have special knowledge or be spiritual to know this truth.
• Masturbation is not an inherently sinful act.

Number one makes the Bible incomplete, while number two is the heresy of Gnosticism. By process of elimination I am left to conclude that number three must be true.
I know some will say, "it does not matter why God didn't say it," or "who are you to question God?"But it does matter; if you want to add to what God has called sin you must first give a good reason why God did not say it Himself. Since there is no doubt that masturbation was known of and practiced by those who originally read and heard the words of the scripture, the Bible's silence on the issue is extremely difficult to explain if you are convinced masturbation is sin.
Most of the arguments we see against masturbation seem to work because the person making them starts with the belief that masturbation is wrong. If someone starts with the question "is it sin" and studies the scripture to find the truth rather than to support what they have already decide the truth should be, the results are different. It is our prayer that asking "why didn't God say masturbation is sin" will help people to reexamine the issue and find a Biblically sound answer.

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2007-11-5 01:07 編輯 ]

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原帖由 dye 於 2007-11-3 12:52 發表
現代教會不反對自慰也不少。

我想找找有關文獻，因我看到的都是反對自慰的文章。

dye

硏究方法是一個問題。

如果有未曾有過自慰行為，為什麼要告訴你？性始終是私生活……

（我想不到有什麼好方法）
————

聖經又沒說他要人做的事一定很易做得到。

————
古時的人早婚。如果你是古代一個有權的牧師，娶了4個老婆（還可走馬燈的換婆），要你不自慰是不可能嗎？

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現代教會不反對自慰也不少。

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2007-11-3 13:08 編輯 ]

抽刀斷水

2. 自慰

自慰是十分普遍的事，是正常發泄性慾的途徑。現今醫學界亦認為適量的自慰對身體無害，只須避免沉迷就可以了，最新研究甚至指出，男性經常自慰有助預防前列腺癌（註1），有益健康。對於青少年血氣方剛的男性，在暫時沒有經濟能力結婚及沒有性伴侶的時候，自慰尤其常見。

然而一般教會立場是不鼓勵教徒自慰的，除了錯誤地將自慰和縱慾、產生淫念等扯上關係外，往往更輔以過時的醫學觀點作為理據，說明自慰對身體有害。

新約聖經在說到「不可姦淫」時指出「凡看見婦女就動淫念的，這人心裡已經與他犯姦淫了。」《馬太福音5:27-28》這句在教會中引申成不可自慰，因為在自慰時總會有性幻想對象，根據經文那是犯罪的行為，然而這就不能應用於虛擬的色情動漫及小說角色了。

男性假如長時間沒有射精，體內積累的精子會以夢遺的方式溢出，但聖經也說這是不潔的：「人若夢遺，他必不潔淨到晚上，並要用水洗全身。無論是衣服是皮子，被精所染，必不潔淨到晚上，並要用水洗。」《利未記15:16-17》

筆者亦曾在網上搜尋及詢問過，究竟有無男性基督徒從未曾有過自慰行為，然而卻未有發現這類稀有動物，歸納結論是一位正常男性，實在無法做到一生中完全沒有自慰。

註1: 自慰可以防前列腺癌 http://baike.baidu.com/view/73522.htm#4

(未完待續)

dye

在中國古代，濫交、縱慾及婚前性行為何嘗不是被視為同一類的事情。那豬籠逃得了嗎？

在那時，這也不是全無道理。（我看）

1)那時沒社保、沒CONDOM。如果孩子的爸逃了，婚前性行為生下的孩子由誰照顧？已婚人仕可以用男方同族人的福利！（女方族人沒理由養外族人的孩子。）

2)那時沒DNA驗測、沒驗血。孩子的爸是誰，在不規則的性生活下難定。孩子可是有承繼權！女人未嫁前在娘家和誰有過一手男家很難知，婚前性行為誕下的孩子和丈夫的孩子可能出現混亂。

3)家庭又叫戶，是古代納稅單位。（是抽家納稅，而不是抽刀。故有父債子還，夫債妻還。）沒身份證的年代找個人難，找個戶則易一點。明確的關係方便INPERSONAL的政府/商業運作。中外婚禮一樣習慣有眾多見證人。

比如DYE有天有了個妻子，她生下的孩子自自然然是當成我一戶。但如果DYE的妻子和別人有婚前性行為，她生下的孩子如果欠下一屁股債，是該算是我戶口還是別人呢？以古代科技似乎沒明顯方法。如果容許婚前性行為，很自然我會抵死不認子。相反，如果不容許婚前性行為，至少我要把妻子浸豬籠才能脫身。

PS 血緣關係的重要性則是天生，這和我們進化史有關。
—————

但人會變，活著的文化會慢慢改變。把濫交、縱慾及婚前性行為分開是現代人的文化。

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2007-11-3 10:37 編輯 ]

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#2 增加申命記一段。

dye

沙文對啦

婚前性行為是「sexually immoral」才是

又叫「Fornication」

1 Corinthians 6:18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

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http://judaism.about.com/od/sexinjudaism/a/sex.htm

Jewish Laws, which are strictly observed only by a minority of Jews (primarily orthodox Jews), prohibits sex outside the context of marriage and restricts the times marital sex can be practiced. Jewish Law forbids both pre-marital and extra-marital sex. In addition, Jewish Law, specifically Family Purity Laws, forbids sexual relations when the wife is ritually impure (niddah). These Jewish Laws of Separation maintain that couples must abstain from sexual relations from the onset of the wife's menstrual cycle, through her five day menstrual cycle and seven post-menstrual days, and until she has purified herself by immersion in a mikvah.

In sum, Judaism, in contrast to some other religions, does not view sex as intrinsically dirty or evil. According to Judaism, sex is a mitzvah if it is done with love, within a marriage, and at the proper time.

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當然一賜樂業人行一夫多妻制……

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2007-11-3 09:56 編輯 ]

沙文

照一賜樂業人解經，只要個女人係未食人家茶禮就冇事。
Judaism
In Judaism, adultery was forbidden in the seventh commandment of the Ten Commandments, but this did not apply to a married man having relations with an unmarried woman. Only a married woman engaging in sexual intercourse with another man counted as adultery, in which case both the woman and the man were considered guilty [4].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery

一賜樂業人並非一夫一妻制的，即使現代仍有一賜樂業人遵守Herem de-Rabbenu Gershom傳統，有兩自三個國家的100名拉比同意，就可以娶多一個老婆
也門的一賜樂業人更認為一定不可以只得一個老婆，今日的以色列，也門以色列娶多個老婆亦都係得嘅
http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/america_4.html
http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/08-06.html

抽刀斷水

幫幫忙，我唔熟聖經，如果有錯請大力斧正，謝謝。

沙文

未必係咁解。以中文意思，婚後才可稱「婦」：【爾雅·釋親】子之妻爲婦。又女子已嫁曰婦。婦之言服也，服事於夫也。

以番文意思，在景教經中未婚女人通常用"damsel"此字，woman則係嫁咗嘅。最好查下Matt 5:28之中"woman"希臘文係咩意思先

dye

婚姻以外有性行為會包括婚前性行為。

Matthew 5:28
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

抽刀斷水

原帖由 dye 於 2007-11-2 14:16 發表
以聖經當時文化，婚前性行為只算ADULTERY 一種。

十誡中的一條大罪

丈夫發現自己剛入門的老婆不是處女，就搵石頭掟死佢。

強姦處女，假如被人發現，要磅水給對方老豆，仲要娶埋條女。

都唔係好大罪之嘛（男人黎講）。

原帖由 dye 於 2007-11-2 14:16 發表
"adulterer" 正正是指所有在婚姻以外有性行為的人。

對，但似乎並非指「未婚」啊。

dye

有關經文

Deuteronomy 22

13If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
14And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
15Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
16And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
17And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
18And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
19And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
20But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

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Deuteronomy 22
28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

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以聖經當時文化，婚前性行為只算ADULTERY 一種。

十誡中的一條大罪

-----------------------
Hebrew13

4Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

"adulterer" 正正是指所有在婚姻以外有性行為的人。

[ 本帖最後由 dye 於 2007-11-2 14:33 編輯 ]

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時至今日香港教會對性的立場

1. 婚前性行為

現今婚前性行為已不是甚麼新鮮的事，社會觀念越趨開放及進步，許多人「奉子成婚」，也鮮有受傳統道德的歧視了。由於籌備婚禮需時，甚至有新娘腹大便便地結婚擺酒，親友一般都不會像數十年前投以鄙視的目光，而香港法例亦一直沒有規定禁止婚前性行為。

然而，教會一直反對婚前性行為，認為婚姻是神所賜的神聖盟約和祝福，婚前的性行為是神所不悅的罪。一般教會把婚前性行為與聖經中的「姦淫」、「淫亂」等劃上等號，因此禁止教徒、甚至非教徒作婚前性行為。事實上，這是蓄意混淆濫交、縱慾與婚前性行為的分別，嚴重扭曲及醜化婚前性行為。

聖經中唯一明文述及婚姻與性的關係，是「婚姻，人人都當尊重，床也不可污穢；因為苟合行淫的人，神必要審判。 」《希伯來書13:4》然而，這句的真正意思，是指婚外的性關係，即對配偶不忠、通姦等行為，並非指未婚的性行為。

另外，《申命記22:13-21》述及假如丈夫發現妻子不是處女，就要用石頭將她打死。首先這律法只適用於女性，暗示容許男性有婚前性行為。再者，申命記中記載的律法，已被普遍教會認為不合時宜，現今教會一般以《約翰福音 8:7》代之：「……你們中間誰是沒有罪的，誰就可以先拿石頭打他。」

(未完待續)