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大計劃:非基督教血淚史 - 相關討論

係你扮盲定係失咗憶
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/25 23:52



    你都識話我係版主,梗係日理萬機架啦,唔記得有乜出奇?

陳版友主要提出以下疑點:
1. 沙勿略致函要求成立果阿宗教裁判所並非事實,如果有,理應致函教宗而非葡萄牙國王。
2. 果阿有很多人慶祝沙勿略紀念日,反證其惡行指控。
3. 果阿仍保存著歷史悠久的印度廟,證明宗教裁判所並非針對印度教徒。

回應:
1.
- Neill 2004, p. 160: "By another route I have written to your highness of the great need there is in India for preachers... The second necessity which obtains in India, if those who live there are to be good Christians, is that your highness should institute the holy Inquisition; for there are many who live according to the law of Moses or the law of Muhammad without any fear of God or shame before men".
- Rao, R.P (1963). Portuguese Rule in Goa: 1510-1961. Asia Publishing House, p.43.
- "However, his actions in India were not without controversy, as he was involved with the establishment of the Goa Inquisition, which punished converts accused of continuing to practice Hinduism or other religions.", How did St. Francis Xavier shape Catholicism?, https://www.britannica.com/story ... r-shape-catholicism
- "When Francis Xavier, the infamous missionary, demanded the setting up of the Goa Inquisition, a religious tribunal for suppression of heresy and punishment of heretics, things rapidly deteriorated for Jews, Hindus and others accused of being non-believers.", https://www.newindianexpress.com ... isition-809153.html

連大英百科全書網站都咁講,可信性相當高。至於為何要致函葡萄牙國王而非教宗,明顯係政教合一既壞榜樣啦,細路仔先要揀既啫,大人why not both?

2. 據印度2011年的人口普查,果阿基督教徒佔總人口27%。紀念的人都是天主教徒,仲實有不乏外地人前來朝聖啦,非教徒沒有任何理由紀念一個天主教「聖」人,也印證果阿現政府對待天主教及其信徒相當寬容。

3. 你列舉了一些寺廟,為何它們沒被毀,有以下原因:

Tambdi Surla Temple: The temple survived untouched due to its remote location in a clearing deep in the forest at the foot of the Western Ghats which surround the site.

Brahma temple in Carambolim: in 1541, the Portuguese ordered the demolition of a Brahman temple in Carambolim village, in the central Ilhas district. According to indigenous tradition, the villagers secretly moved the ruined temple’s relics to Satari, a location then outside the zone of Portuguese control (now a northeastern Goan district bordering Karnataka). The primary temple relic was a granite statue of Brahma, 1.5 meters high, flanked by images of the Hindu gods Saraswati and Savitri. This statue sustained significant damage, apparently having been subjected to zealous Portuguese iconoclasm (Pereira 2008, 224).
https://journals.openedition.org/lerhistoria/8618

Shri Nageshi Maharudra Temple: This temple was unaffected by the religious persecution of Portuguese rulers in the 16th Century. This was because at that time Antruj of Ponda Mahal was not under the domain of the Portuguese power and this facilitated the migration of Saraswat deities like Shantadurga, Ganapati etc. to Antruj.

Mangeshi Temple: This temple had its origins in Kushasthali Cortalim, a village in murmugao which fell to the invading Portuguese in 1543. In the year 1560, when the Portuguese started Christian conversions in mormugao taluka, the Saraswats of Kaundinya Gotra and Vatsa Gotra moved the Mangesh Linga from the original site at the Kushasthali or Cortalim on the banks of river Aghanashini (Zuari)(Sancoale) to its present location at Mangeshi in Priol village of Atrunja Taluka, which was then ruled by the Hindu kings of Sonde of Antruz Mahal (Ponda), to be more secure.

Mahalakshmi temple: The temple was built in 1831 by Dhakji Dadaji, a Hindu merchant.
https://mumbaicity.gov.in/tourist-place/mahalakshmi-temple/
陳版友仲認為有咩唔合邏輯,即管討論一下,我也希望我寫的文章經得起挑戰。
支持鼓勵每位離教者 › 閹割神父 刻不容緩 ‹
呢篇講出了殖民地政權的策略,教徒唔係仲希望天主教可以獨善其身下話:

In particular, one can point to specific Portuguese colonial methods in India: the systematic destruction of mosque and temple sites, often coopting these sacred spaces to build structures for Christian worship (Rossa 1997, 43-50; Pereira 2008, 224, 228, 264; Souza 2009, 45, 63); the strategic placement of churches, shrines, and chapels at visually prominent locations (Gomes 2011, 18-22; Rossa 1997, 47-48; Souza 2009, 64); the incorporation of decorative Hindu temple components into the fabric of churches and secular structures for reasons of asserting symbolic cultural and religious dominance (Dehejia 1997, 373-376; Carita 2009, 293-298; Shirodkar 1983, 145-147); and the establishment of an Inquisition tribunal to enforce Hindu converts’ adherence to Roman Catholic orthodoxy (1560-1812) (Saraiva 2001, 342-353; Lopes 1998; Gracias 1912). By the end of the seventeenth century, however, Portuguese authority in the Old Conquests had long since been consolidated, largely by the creation – through conversion and procreation over generations – of a loyal Christianized Indo-Portuguese population (Robinson 1998, 46; Mendonça 2002, 81-82). Though spreading Christianity remained an important component of expansion during the campaigns of the New Conquests, evangelical proselytizing no longer represented a fundamental life-and-death program to guarantee the survival of the colony (Disney 2009, v. 2, 200-204, 314-322; Souza 1985, 10-24; Robinson 1998, 10).

https://journals.openedition.org/lerhistoria/8618
支持鼓勵每位離教者 › 閹割神父 刻不容緩 ‹
果阿有心基督徒寫的:
https://christingoa.wordpress.com/
支持鼓勵每位離教者 › 閹割神父 刻不容緩 ‹
沙勿略建議的宗教審裁, 是針對仍保持猶太教和回教的所謂基督徒 (因為當時話信基督領洗就有唔少著數, 但暗中就仍拜佢地既神)。 唔係針對, 逼當地印度教嚟信教喎。
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/26 23:06



    你係假設咗「聖」人係唔會講大話,但係自古至今向國王既請准既奏摺同現實不符,係經常出現既事,更何況宗教裁判所開始實行之日,沙勿略已經死咗,後人點樣落實,沙勿略只能瞓住睇。

沙勿略夠話果阿啲人排住隊咁畀佢受洗,日日做唔停添,你用常理推斷都知道,無端端又點會有大量人咁輕易改變信仰?

仲有呀,,,講明係punish converts accused of continuing to practice Hinduism or other religions...
唔係去審其他宗教既人啵
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/26 23:06


表面改信,暗地裡又繼續原有信仰儀式,一個人要點樣先會咁做,明顯係有冤情啦包大人,你唔係咁辦案下話?

只係'involved'...你就吹到, 誇張到佢係主持人, 掌門, 幕後黑手, 外國勢力咁囉.
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/26 23:06


認就得喇,殺人,有時係唔駛親手染血咁去做既,做一個決定就可以架喇。

呢段唔隱知你想翕乜春夏秋冬
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/26 23:07


係反駁你以為多人紀念沙勿略,就代表佢無做衰野,解釋返啲人係點組成。

1546年, 沙勿略還是一個修會的小小傳教士 (不講樞機主教, 連主教職銜都無) , 你估係今日咁揚名咩...
點解葡萄國王會聽一個寂寂無名既傳教士老點做野, 而唔係睇羅馬教宗既頭?
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/26 23:08


都話咗政教合一呀大佬,無圖無真相,自己睇畫啦:
    https://artsandculture.google.co ... ntry/IAEXGfoAT44r-w

你拎嚟既資料都講到明建廟的地方那是葡萄牙控制的。
建寺時, 在宗教審裁最盛時,
還可以興建印度廟???

為甚麼果牙天主教會一方面要燒毀, 拆印度廟, 一方面又容許印度教徒建新寺廟?
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/26 23:12


原有建廟之處被葡萄牙控制,後來搬到無被葡萄牙控制的地方:

    Mangeshi Temple... had its origins... moved... to its present location... which was then ruled by the Hindu kings

不過,  事實是因為14世紀時, 受北方藩王的攻打而搬遷

那時葡萄牙人殖民統治都未嚟
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/27 04:10



    嗯,咁即係間廟既保存,唔關葡萄牙人格外開恩既事啦,只係因為佢處於葡萄牙人控制範圍之外。
支持鼓勵每位離教者 › 閹割神父 刻不容緩 ‹
呢個就係宗教審裁既目的哩
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/27 12:03



    既然係咁,離教信返舊教咪得囉,駛乜受裁判所折磨?

都唔知想話你單純定係智慧未開端好呢。

你話每年紀念沙勿略的活動, 參予者都只係外來人, 不是本地人...
哇....啲人山長水遠都嚟紀念沙勿略, 更加 ...
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/27 12:04



    都同你講咗果阿本地基督宗教信徒佔27%,另加外來人士,你睇下現政府對待天主教徒幾咁寬容丫。
       
一講果牙宗教審裁就拎沙勿略出嚟揹鑊咁囉。 ...
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/27 12:02


    殺人唔駛一定自己郁手既,何況沙勿略都係開咗個頭,雖然佢同葡萄牙國王都幾friend,但其後王室持續收到沙勿略啲o靚既信件要求成立宗教裁判所,都搞咗好耐先應承落實架。
       
屎人用屎料
https://journals.openedition.org/le ...
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/27 12:06



    你用一篇來自The Times of India既文章,就可以推翻成個OpenEdition? 跟手仲抹黑人地成個網站係內容農場?你都幾滑坡。你cross check埋其他資料未?點解要信你引果篇唔信我引果篇?
       
        你頂多可以證明我引述既其中一篇既部分內容有問題架咋。
支持鼓勵每位離教者 › 閹割神父 刻不容緩 ‹
當時的印度原著民若入教
(1)取消印度教的社會階級觀, 受低下層歡迎
(2)取消寡婦陪夫火葬習俗 sati
(3)不用當殖民者的奴隷, 回復自由身
(4) 女, 寡婦也可以與男丁平等, 分家族內的財產
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/27 12:03



    哦,乜原來唔係為咗耶穌既救恩呀?咁沙勿略又唔駛啲人了解天主教理先幫佢地洗既?咁樣既洗禮係咪valid架?
如係有宗教壓制既話, 唔好講搬廟, 連起間廟都唔哩...「後來搬」? 搬風濕哩!
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/27 12:05



    淨係天主教有神蹟架咩,人地印度教都有架嘛。
果牙的歷史學者寫的:
Inquisition horror or error?
https://www.heraldgoa.in/Edit/Op ... ror-or-error/162157

Misuse of History: The Inquisition
https://www.heraldgoa.in/Edit/Op ... -Inquisition/162483

GOA INQUISITION LIES- SHEFALI VAIDYA EXPOSED

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= ... el=GloryApologetics

beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/27 00:45



    你想話Alan Machado係歷史學者?佢係engineer,作家黎咋喎:

https://mangalorean-catholics.fandom.com/wiki/Alan_Machado_Prabhu
成篇回應, 你都只係用「想就是這樣」的論點, 再無引喱引路了嗎? 無實質的「料」喇喎。 ...
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/27 12:02


    你開始明白,沙勿略同果阿宗教裁判所既成立有關,而且仲由唔信有寫信畀國王,到分析有關信件,另外由你認為佢係修會的小小寂寂無名傳教士,但依家知道佢係離開葡萄牙時卻有機會同國王道別。
       
        你明白咗你列舉既5座印度廟,係由於種種原因,先可以保存至今,得來不易。
       
        你仲想要乜實質料呢?
支持鼓勵每位離教者 › 閹割神父 刻不容緩 ‹
嗰篇來自 timesofindia 既論點
https://timesofindia.indiatimes. ... ple-to-the-god-of-c ...
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/27 21:41



    原來你以為淨係求其搵到一篇文既觀點不同,就可以推翻成個網站。

咁我個超短基版FAQ,應該足夠推翻成個基督宗教喇。

(你依家明白咩叫滑坡謬誤未呀?)
之不過果牙地區既印度教徒就覺得天主教既神蹟勁啲囉。。。點解呢?

係咪叫「觀眾的眼光是雪亮的」呢 ...
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/27 21:43



    果啲係果阿印度裔天主教徒,你就簡稱印度教徒呀?
呢句都反映到你依加知openedition篇野。。。唔岩得哂。
「部份內容會有問題」。。


呢嗰正係我要指出既 ...
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/27 21:42



    做考證當然乜都唔可以盡信啦……但係你推翻咗喇咩?
咁你娶老婆時, 抽嫂係咪都要睇咗你呢幾十年有無愛佢, 有無出軌, 床上功夫及唔及格。。。先好行禮結 ...
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/27 21:42



    拿拿拿,咁求其幫人洗禮,咁就衍生第日呢啲改教者陽奉陰違咁拜返舊神既事喇,亦間接導致宗教裁判所既成立起因。沙勿略真係促成果阿宗教裁判所成立既罪魁禍首啦,呢鋪無得抵賴喇掛。
咁教會要做乜野先可以証明到上嚟慕道既冒道友, 唔係「求其」??
要用佛陀既天眼通? ...
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/27 22:04



    依家天主教做洗禮,唔係要讀返個course合格咗先可以做架咩?沙勿略幫人洗禮咁求鬼其咁濫,難怪之後咁多手尾啦。

啱架喇,入佢數啦。
你又試下求其搵個網料, 指出嗰間Brahma temple 搬址唔係在葡萄牙人來到前的14世紀

求求其其都得架 ...
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/27 22:56



    本來都話間廟唔係葡萄牙政權管治範圍內就唔理啦,都唔再關我篇文事架喇,你就硬係要鑽牛角尖,咁好啦,搵畀你睇喇,唔好再煩我:

The Brahma temple in Goa was originally located at Carambolim (Karmali) near Panjim. After its sacking by the Portuguese in the 16th C, the idol was moved to its current remote outpost and re-consecrated. Later, in a nod to its original home, the area around it came to be known as Brahma-Karmali.

https://blog.parrikar.com/2010/01/12/brahma-of-goa/
佢地未做天主教徒前, 係乜徒呢?
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/27 22:50



    天主教徒好多都係世襲架啦,父母係教徒,子女都跟進做。
你都識講係「現在」既政府..
到反天主教時, 你就講乜都係中世紀時, (或幾十年前)既野啵

講番舊時:
宗徒多默殉道, 就係去到印度傳教時, 被當時保守野蠻既印度徒一支矛捅死既
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/27 23:12



    宗徒多默死之前做咗啲咩呀?天主教就大把寫手,寫自己所謂既「血淚史」,非基督教一族就好少跨國家咁寫相關歷史。

我會將相關文章上傳區塊鏈,希望相關歷史不會輕易被扭曲和湮滅。
你係咪贊緊依家天主教既慕道過程, 一啲都唔「求其」
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/27 22:37



    响入教前考試做好審查,點都好過求其入教後用酷刑做宗教裁判。
呢到就有個矛盾唔係幾合邏輯既「想就是這樣了」
葡萄牙人當日要摧毀間梵天神廟, 點解又會毀淨個神像, 俾 ...
beebeechan 發表於 2022/9/28 00:59



    解釋唔到咪係神蹟囉,諗咁多做乜?
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